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question Refrigeration (cassia)
Posted: 1:57:51 pm on 5/6/2005 Modified: Never
 
...Has anyone installed refrigeration in the standard C&C 27 ice box?
  Re: Refrigeration (davidww1)
Posted: 6:44:11 pm on 5/7/2005 Modified: Never
 
Bob Wilson had (I believe) an Adler Barbour unit on Legacy, a Mk III. A fellow named Bob Honsberger had a Nova Kool unit on his Mk II. Both these boats have been sold, so their owners don't show up any more. Sorry I can't tell you more.

David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
  Re: Refrigeration (Guest)
Posted: 11:22:18 pm on 5/7/2005 Modified: Never
 
Bob Honsberger is alive and well (sort of) and I still have "Budge", a Mk.2 . My refrigeration is a 110 volt unit installed in the factory equipped ice box. It works quite well and in fact will freeze a jug of water placed in the freezer unit. In a warm climate,  upgraded insulation to the box would be appropriate. For my kind of sailing and the availability of shore power, I do believe the 110 volt to be my best solution.
  Re: Refrigeration (cassia)
Posted: 9:27:11 pm on 5/9/2005 Modified: Never
 
Thanks for the responses on the refrigeration question.  I am curious as to where the compressor is located or where the heat from the ice box is discharged.  
  Re: Refrigeration (Guest)
Posted: 12:01:13 pm on 5/9/2005 Modified: Never
 

On my 110 volt system, the air cooled compressor is mounted in the port cockpit locker close to the bulkhead in order to minimze the coolant line distance to the ice box. Heat dissipation has not been an issue as there is sufficient space volume with the interconnected lockers and under cockpit air movement. Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Bob Honsberger
Burlington Ontario
"BUDGE"  Mark 2 hull # 322

  Re: Refrigeration (John)
Posted: 1:49:44 pm on 6/4/2007 Modified: Never
 
How much did it cost. My wife wants a coolmatic $700 (AC/DC).
Has anyone cut out the ice box for a cooler?

John - Weather or Not
mark II
  Re: Refrigeration (tboicey)
Posted: 4:12:40 pm on 6/4/2007 Modified: Never
 
I just took possession (Thanks John) of a MkI that has a 110V refrigeration system.

I haven't tried it yet, and all I know of it is from crawling around the starboard side locker where the unit is located.

I will probably learn more over the coming weeks, if that doesn't come too late for you...
  Re: Refrigeration (Guest)
Posted: 1:47:22 pm on 6/20/2007 Modified: Never
 
The unit I mentioned above is a Blue Water systems 110V refrigeration system.

It seems to work, after trying it for a few minutes.

The guts are located in the rear starboard cockpit, nestled around the factory bilge pump thruhull.

No idea on performance yet, or consumption. I guess 110V power consumption doesn't matter much...
  Re: Refrigeration (William)
Posted: 1:42:07 pm on 7/11/2007 Modified: Never
 

I have installed a Norcold 12v/110v system on my C&C 27mkI. It works very well to the point of freezing things that are right under the cold plate. I added some pour in foam around the ice box to help insulate it a bit better (ok a lot better). The installation was very easy and required no special skills. I bought my unit of ebay and it was still new for around $450.00 US.

I would highly recommend it to anyone looking for a inexpensive and easy to install unit.

I

  Re: Refrigeration (Nepenthe)
Posted: 6:34:18 pm on 7/11/2007 Modified: Never
 
What kind of pour in insulation did you use?  Sounds like it would be useful even if just to improve the ice box.

Greg Tokarz, Nepenthe, Mk1 Hull #73

  Re: Refrigeration (William)
Posted: 5:45:41 pm on 7/12/2007 Modified: Never
 
I actually used the spray cans with a tube because it is less messy but you can buy the pour in foam at a lot of marine stores or Aeromarine on ebay. The spray in you can get at most home improvement store. I used about 8 cans. this was easier for me becuase I was re-doing the interior anyway so if I needed a hole I just drilled one then plugged it when I was done. It does make a difference even if you stick with ice
  Re: Refrigeration (Guest)
Posted: 2:39:11 pm on 7/14/2007 Modified: Never
 
I did the big icebox insulation job on our 27 Mk 3 several months ago.

So, I drilled 2 and 1 1/2 inch holes around the hatch and filled the cavity with 2 part foam in 15 pours to control expansion. Having seen this stuff break steel welds on fish boats you really have to be careful. One trick that works well is to get it really warm, I left the cans in my truck in the sun for several hours, prior to mixing. This may sound crazy and it does greatly reduce your working time, but it causes the foam to expand and fill voids very quickly while it is still very soft. The big damage occurs when the foam is hardening but still expanding. You get the added benefit of max expansion, the stuff is expensive. I used about 6 litres.

Once all foam was hard I cut it flush with the counter tops, sanded the old surface with 60 grit and put down new arborite. There is no need to fill the two inch holes with anything but foam because the arborite is strong enough over the two inch gap.

Just returned from a three week cruise and the results of the Icebox insulation on Pyrite were well beyond my expectations. I have devided the icebox with acrylic so the aft portion will hold three large blocks. After three days of running the ice was only down by about 15 %!! We were unable to squeeze another block in so put it into the main area of the box. Four days later it fit and another two days later, where we were able to get Ice, we bought another block even though there was not room for it. Ice can be hard to find where we cruise so you always try to get some when you can, but my guess is that four blocks of ice would last well over a week in summer conditions.

Pyrite
  Re: Refrigeration (Chris)
Posted: 1:24:25 pm on 7/16/2007 Modified: Never
 

On my MKIII, I believe that there is considerable void space between the bottom of the ice box and the hull, as well as some significant gaps allowing access to the bilge, and the area behind the wall on port side that the table attaches to.  Did you do anything to block these areas, or did you just fill the whole thing up with foam?  I even have a 6" or 8" square hole from the lower battery shelf location into this area.  I think if I just dumped foam in I'd have it flowing out into the battery/engine area?

Chris

  Re: Refrigeration (Guest)
Posted: 6:23:09 pm on 7/16/2007 Modified: Never
 
You're correct, there is quite a large void under the icebox, so it's very important to fill the void in small controlled pours so as not to push the icebox up. I had originally planned to tear the whole thing apart, insulate and then rebuild. After drilling the holes and inspecting the void with flashlight and mirrors, I went the other route. There were a few small holes to fill and I just used duct tape which I removed later. This goes back to getting the foam warm so that it expands very quickly while still soft and then sets in minutes. My 15 pours were complete in less than an hour with no expansion damage, not even any noise of things being pressured. As for the bilge, the floor liner fits very tightly in the ice box area and there was no seepage toward the bilge, just a little where there was a bit of space in the cabinetry. The partial bulkhead that separates the icebox from the settee is glassed to the hull all the way, so there is no chance of seepage there. The hole you refer to near the battery shelf had already been filled by the previous owner with what looked like a bit of spray foam. From my internal inspection I could see that it didn’t penetrate very far. You are right, any holes like that would have to be filled prior to pouring. My first pours were very small and because the warm foam sets fast, any lower holes will be plugged quickly.
  Re: Refrigeration (pura vida)
Posted: 7:30:45 pm on 7/16/2007 Modified: Never
 
The square hole you speak of has cables running through it in my boat. Did you do anything to create a cable raceway for future wire runs?

Mike M
SV Wind Horse
#375
Galveston, Tx

  Re: Refrigeration (Guest)
Posted: 8:16:01 pm on 7/16/2007 Modified: Never
 
I didn't have any cables running through that area. If you do, or think you might want to in the future, it would be a good idea to run them through a PVC pipe or something like that. Obviously once you pour the foam anything it touches is now permanent. If you are going to run some kind of conduit make sure you secure it well, even the warm foam has away of pushing unsecure things around.

Pyrite
  Re: Refrigeration (Aragorn)
Posted: 9:19:29 pm on 7/25/2007 Modified: 9:41:10 pm on 7/25/2007
 
Re "Mix and Pour" Insulation.
   I've just fiinished some preliminary exploration of the voids around and under my icebox so I can easily see why it is so inefficient. I had earlier added some insulation on the exterior of the box where accessible (aft end- inside port locker---and in the battery box area) but now I want to follow "Pyrite's" plan. The only supplier of "mix and pour" foam  that I've found so far is in British Columbia.
 Does someone know an Ontario source (and cost) for this product???


Clare Jordan Aragorn

  Re: Refrigeration (Aragorn)
Posted: 1:06:58 pm on 8/19/2007 Modified: Never
 
   Further to this thread;  I did manage to find some Mix & Pour foam (@ $28 US for a 2 cu.ft. kit-- I bought 2 kits = 4 cu. ft.) and , like Pyrite, I drilled some holes around the perimeter of the box and did the messy deed. I likely underestimated the volume of the voids to be filled and it also seemed that the foam didn't expand as well as it was supposed to (despite warming it as 'Pyrite" had suggested) but after only half-filling the space under the box, I'd already used 1/5 of the foam!!! ---- Then to plan "B", which I'd recommend as a stating point to others contemplating this job. I had already enlarged the access hole under the icebox to the full width of the battery compartment so I cut some pieces of 3/4" styrofoam and proceeded to fit them in there to fill up this space, thus conserving the more expensive pour-in foam to fill the impossible-to-reach places.
   If I were doing it again, I would likely first fill the (considerable) space under the box with some "stuff-in" type of insulation (fibre-glass wool??) and only use the much more expensive foam for the voids around the perimeter of the box where one can't access the space. 
  Anyway, 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating' so I'm off tomorrow for a 6 day cruise after which, we'll know how much difference the insulation makes. 

Clare Jordan,  Aragorn
  
  Re: Refrigeration (Aragorn)
Posted: 10:49:33 am on 8/27/2007 Modified: Never
 

Judging by the 500+ 'hits' the subject of Refrigeration has drawn on this forum, it seems to be of high interest so I though I'd add some observations made after insulating my Mk111's icebox.

   First-off, I should explain that when setting out on a cruise I add only ice that I've made myself in my home freezer (blocks made in a plastic wasebasket roughly equivalent in size to the small blocks one buys from the vendings machines, or in the form of 2-litre jugs of drinking water frozen in my home freezer.) Thermodynamics 101 will tell you that ice from your home freezer is, in fact, colder (about minus 25 degrees) and able to absorb more heat before melting away than the ice (Slush?) you get from an ice vending machine at 28 degrees F.). Secondly, all items that go into my icebox are either frozen beforehand (if possible) or chilled in my refrigerator. (You'd be suprised how much heat 24 cans of warm beer bring into the ice-box!!)

  I just finished two back-to-back cruises of 6 days each; one just before insulating the icebox and one just afterward. The weather and the amount of motor usage during each cruise was pretty much the same so the comparison is fair. In each case, I loaded five home-made blocks of ice and three 2-litre fozen jugs of drinking water before setting out.

   In the first cruise, I added 4 small blocks of purchased ice at the end of day #3 and 3 bags of ice cubes(blocks weren't avaiable) at the end of day #5. I came home after 6 days with the equivalent of about a 1 block of ice left.

   I've had to wait a bit to report on the second cruise. We loaded the ice and food last Sunday afternoon and left Monday morning. We anchored out each evening so there was no opportunity to buy ice along the way but we didn't need to. The last of the original charge of ice melted away last evening after 7 days !

   I can see a further possible efficiency by "manufacturing" my home-made blocks of ice in a shape that better fits the contours of the slope-sided icebox allowing more ice and food to be easier fitted in.

Clare Jordan  Aragorn

question Re: Refrigeration (Chris Phippen)
Posted: 8:09:41 pm on 8/29/2007 Modified: Never
 

Hi Clare,

From your description above, it would appear your insulation experiment was quite successful!  When you went to Plan B (and added the rigid insulation in the bottom) did you then finish pouring the foam in from the holes around the top to completely fill the remaining voids?  How many hole (and what size) did you drill?  I assume you are just going to re-cover the counter top and lid with new arborite to hide the holes.  Did you add any rigid insulation to the inside of the lid?

 

Chris

  Re: Refrigeration (Aragorn)
Posted: 9:11:43 pm on 8/29/2007 Modified: Never
 

Hi Chris,
   As I said , doing it again, I would just stuff the large space under the box with Fibre-glass wool and use the expensive "mix & pour" only around the perimeter. I used a hole-saw (had to borrow a right-angle drill) and made 6 holes, 1 1/4" diam.(2 each; in back, right end and left end--- The front space I thought too small to bother drilling into since it's already almost filled with the existing insulation).
   Some further saving of "mix and pour" might be realized by cutting a larger access hole in the shelf over the forward end of the outboard space to allow stuffing in some fibre-glass wool into this rather large cavity.
   Some years ago I had glued 3/4" Styrofoam to the underside of the icebox lid and had also put 3/4" Stryrofoam + 1/4" reflective foil on the side of the battery compartment and on the exterior of the bulkhead inside the port locker where it adjoins the icebox. These measures had helped a little but the large open spaces under the box and outboard of the box have to be the real culprits of heat input.

   Yeah, I have 4 visible holes to deal with yet-- new Arborite top I guess.

Clare Jordan  Aragorn

  Re: Refrigeration (Guest)
Posted: 9:14:39 pm on 9/1/2007 Modified: 12:43:53 pm on 7/15/2009
 

Clare,
Sorry to hear that you didn't get the expansion you had hoped for with your foam. I had no trouble filling the bottom void or the larger one behind the box, but I did use six litres. When I sent in my post I assumed that the polyurethane foam that I purchased from Industrial Plastics and Paint here in Victoria was widely available. I called them today. They sell it under license and couldn't, or wouldn't, tell me who makes it. I bought the 8 litre kit (4 of A and 4 of B)which is sold for 146.99, expensive, but worth it for me.
That said, I am glad you're happy with the results.
Michael
Pyrite


[The product safety data sheet lists the manufacturer as Hydroseal Polymers Inc. in California. They are an industrial-scale supplier, not a retailer, so one would have to contact them to find a retail seller. There is nothing special about this particular 2-part polyurethane foam - Google will discover many suppliers in a variety of locations. Google also hosts a science video showing foam expansion. - Admin]

  Re: Refrigeration (pura vida)
Posted: 7:52:22 pm on 7/9/2009 Modified: Never
 

Clare and Michael,


Care to update us on the insulation? Have you noted any long term issues with the pour in method?


Mike M
SV Wind Horse
#375
Galveston, Tx

  Re: Refrigeration (Pyrite)
Posted: 10:16:22 pm on 7/13/2009 Modified: Never
 

Hello Mike,


Last summer we completed a circumnavigation of Vancouver Island, AMAZING!. Two days prior to departure, after many sleepless nights thinking about where I was going to get ice, (slight exaggeration) I installed a Nova Cool freezer.

The install was easy, except for my sprained ankle diving through the companion way hatch to do something...another story. I also installed a 68 amp alternator at the same time.

Our biggest problem was not freezing everything in the ice box! I put a couple of gel packs in the freezer and would shut the unit down over night. They never melted, and I could go two days before I would have to run the engine for an hour to charge the batteries. Our longest stay was four days after which we really needed a deeper charge. A two hour run to a creek with sweet water did the trick, two birds with one stone.

I think the freezer would have been a complete waste of money had the ice box not been properly insulated. We are very happy with the capabilities of our ice box/freezer.

I will post some picks of the freezer installation in Black Arts Various projects. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures of the insulation process.


Pyrite

  Re: Refrigeration (diva27)
Posted: 10:35:43 am on 8/16/2009 Modified: Never
 

Refrigeration is a bugbear for me with my Mk I. A previous owner insulated the box with what I assume was spray foam (there's a circular hole cut through the wall in the battery compartment where some foam has extruded). There are 2 compressor plates and a 12/110 compressor right behind the port bulkhead. It will keep the compartment quite cool with the compressor only on a "1" setting. But the foam was a little dodgy in that the wall of the icebox bulged slightly. The boat also has a totally inadequate house battery bank, and that has to be amended. I generally run the compressor when I'm motoring, and then only in short bursts (30 minutes) per day to help keep the ice and freezer pack cold. (I've had the boat 3 and a half seasons now and I'm still trying to get my head around the charging and house usage issues. I have a small solar panel for trickle charging, and I keep resisting going to a large solar setup because i just don't like the idea of the clutter on the stern rail).


One of my problems with the system is that the icebox is just so bloody huge, which naturally creates cooling issues. Subdividing it makes sense, and I'd like to hear more about what people have done in this regard. I was on a Tartan 31 on the Hudson River in May and I swear the icebox was half the size of mine. I have been tempted to completely reconfigure the galley set-up. I would convert the present icebox area into dry storage with drawers, cut the alcohol stove down from 2 burner to 1 burner (we never use more than one burner) and then install a much smaller counter-loading icebox in the space freed up by the smaller stove. I don't know if anyone else has considered this, but I also haven't seriously investigated the space beneath the starboard galley counter. Plus the fuel tank is right on the other side of the bulkhead and that means I couldn't get the compressor unit as close as on the port side.


In my less lucid moments, I imagine removing the galley altogether from the port side and creating a quarter berth...

Doug Hunter
Diva
C&C 27 Mk1
Midland Bay Sailing Club
www.sweetwatercruising.com
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