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There you go Scott. My comment stimulated a better response. Also, You Tube has a number of how to demos on doing this which may serve to embolden you further.
I would pay about $1000 US to have it done by a known expert including the shaft seal.
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Pemaquid Harbor, Maine
Scott
I have done lots of repairs and upgtades to my sailboats over the past 40 years. This is one I know about and have left for those who have acquired the art. It involves tricky steps such as removing and reinstalling the propeller shaft. Rebuilding the bearing itself is one more art not to take lightly. Maybe the brave might to do it with a coach who's done them before and helps with guidance through the details. Here in Maine the lobster fishermen teach eachother how. The sailboat owners find a solid boatyard that has references.
Good luck.
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Pemaquid Harbor, Maine
I agree except for the need in heavy sea going up wind.
The sail trim and rigging guide leave the babystay out of the discussion. Having raced with full height foresail rigs, I expect to have some tension on the backstay in 15 and above conditions. The sailmaker guides always call for backstay adjustment when rigging a babystay finger tight after setting mast rake at the dock.
When I purchased this boat the surveyor noted the separation of the plate under the babystay and it's been on my list and also signs of separation between the deck and hull at the aft corners where the toe rail casting is fastened.
I use the backstay to control headfoil sag and mailsail leach telltails together with main traveler angle below the boom. This is nothing special. Just what the sailmakers and Gary Jobson trimming book says about tuning.
So I had a guru pro do the backsty chain plates with additional layup of fiberglass inside the stern at the locations. The corneres under the toe rail casting were resealed too. Now with the babystay separation remaing, I wish to keep water from seeping into the four mounting holes. How many spongy decks are there because thru holes are not kept sealed?
The chaftsman here will go into the under fastening point by making a thru hole in the headlinder to fit a standard size plastic inspection plate, then decide how to clean the inside deck surface under the babystay plate so it can be strengthened and seal with a stainless plate inside with sealer before covering the hole with plastic cover.
I did many races around the San Juans in a Mk V during their prime PHRF days and sail trim was always involvong the set up of the babystay, rake at the dock then backstay for best up wind speed.
I was hoping to know experiences.
The other projects involve hatch window replacement or entire hatch replacement
Finding the little caps covering the screw heads on the cabin ports. Some are missing. The she's perfect for next season.
Once this is completed I'll keep pictures for anyne i terested.
John
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Pemaquid Harbor, Maine
I have noticed that the baby stay thru deck mounting plate should be tightened. The tension over the years has caused the plate to show that it's off the deck when the back stay has tension on it. A more detailed inspection below shows there is no access to the fastening bolts. The headliner inside blocks access. The location is behind the hatch and in front of the forward head partition.
Anyne tackle this problem yet? The deck under the deck core samdwich needs to be fixed with the bolts tightened. How does one get at them?
Last winter I fixed the back stay to toe rail fastening system at the stern corners to remove the backstay off the corners on to chain plates on each side of the stern at about 3" off the corners. That solved the aft tensioning so the leach on the mainsail and jib could be tuned with the backstay sdjustment without putting too much tension at the hull to deck corner bond. The adjustment bridle with far less tension is still on the corners.
What about the babystay? Any ideas or advice?. The 1986 hull and engine are otherwise in perfect shape with a long life ahead.
Thanks
John
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Pemaquid Harbor, Maine
[The only reason that we allow - in fact encourage - Forum members to share email addresses is for buying or selling. If you don't know why we impose this rule, please read this explanation. If there is interest in this modification, it could be added to Black Arts > Various Projects. - Admin]
Price reduced $12,000 US obo
Located in Maine, well maintained listed on line at
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/51172
Contact seller at J123law@aol.com
Thanks
John Lawrence
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Pemaquid Harbor, Maine
I am looking to find anyone who may have found this problem or knows a boat yard who's done work on this problem. I fear loosing the rig in heavy air down wind conditions.
My adjustable backstay on the starbard side where it fastens to the corner of the hull at the sandwich between the deck and hull has been flexing under the casting at the aft end of the toe rail.
It has been noticed for the past few years and is getting worse. The boat yard where I keep my boat says the inside of the hull at that corner looks like there might have been some repair work due to the hull being hit at that corner. I can't tell for sure.
What they are recommending involves placing chain plates on the transom near the outside edge and doing the same modification on both sides even though this appears only on the starboard side. There are lots of cracks in the deck gel coast around the area and de-lamination of the deck lay up in the corner. Yet the hull itself under the deck seems to show no problems and any signs of cracking.
I wonder if the lay up of the transom fiber glass is adequate for a through hull chain plate? That would relieve the stress on the adjacent deck. The potential failure of the original configuration at the casting is my worry. The plates would be positioned so they would line up with the normal pulling direction of the back stay geometry as it goes up the the mast head.
This is an 1986 manufactured boat out of the Rhode Island production. The boat is otherwise extremely clean and the Yanmar purrs all the way up to 3000 RPM.
Help would be greatly appriecated. And, if there's a way to speak with the C&C factory, I'd appreciate knowing any info.
Thanks
John Lawrence
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Pemaquid Harbor, Maine
[There is one rule on this Forum: no soliciting of private responses via e-mail unless for the purpose of buying or selling something. When the conversation happens in the Forum, we all learn, which is the point of having a public Forum. Please read this explanation. The telephone number and email address have been deleted.
The only way you can speak to that factory is if you have access to a time machine. The original C&C is long gone, several "restructurings", outright sales of the company and sales of the name ago. See our History page (which doesn't go beyond the Fairport, Ohio appearance, but by that point, the connection was only in name). - Admin]
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C&C27 MK V
Midcoast Maine
David, thanks for help!
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Colin
I don't recall the exact dimensions of the tank but
it shouldn't matter as long as you cut the arm length to
match the one you remove from the tank. And, you orient
the arm in the same direction as the one you remove. If you
don't follow those two details, it's possible the new unit will
get hung up inside the tank and not read over the full range of
fuel levels. Also you must make the new support extrusion mounted
from the top flange the same length as the old one you are replacing.
If you do this you should not have any problem. I just did mine this
way about two months ago and it's working well. I also tested it before
placing it inside the tank. That was done by turning on
the ignition with the two wires hooked up and swinging the arm by hand
to see the fuel meter deflect up and down from full to empty.
Good luck
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Scott
I went to the boat after it sat for two
days and it started right up and ran perfectly.
Therefore no new air had sucked in as it did
previously with the RACOR filter in the line.
It's also interesting to note the Mack Boring
has a replacement version in stock that the will
sell directly to end users. It's a non-Yanmar 3 party
part which allows them to do so. P/N 4120 It has a reduced
number of ports which reduces possible air leaks.
The Yanmar engine should not be run without this filter fuel/h2o
separator except as I did to trouble shoot the possible problem.
I put the new unit in place tomorrow
Thank you for helping me work through this problem.
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Scott
Unlike the Atomic 4, the Yanmar has a lift pump that runs off a mechanical arm connected to the engine and it has a little external arm for priming by pumping it manually with a finger or two. I don't know how to disable it.
Today I made progress. The tank is now out of question! That's a good thing because it would end our season early. There isn't any way to get it out of the boat without taking the engine out so it can be slid forward into the cabin and out through the companion way.
Why is the fuel tank out of question? Because I got the same fading and stopping in identical circumstances with the external tank testing connected to the external RACOR filter/H2O Separator unit. I also observed the strainer/filter on the engine was pumped almost dry as well. I then bypassed the RACOR by connecting the fuel line to the lift pump and the problem didn't reoccur during my testing. The engine continued to run normally with peak RPMs around 3600 under load.
I am now replacing the RACOR 120RAMA assembly. It's 30 microns and rated at 15 gal/hr. It will be towards the end of the week before I can take on this last step. In the meantime I will start the engine and reconfirm that the siphon isn't lost with air after the engine cooled. The filter connections show signs of stress from being over tightened which resulted in a minor air leak, just enough to cause the engine to loose the fuel in the line coming from the tank. Thus the engine runs out fuel when the strainer filter was sucked dry by the injector pump.
Lets hope time will prove this out completely once I replace the filter/separator between the tank and lift pump on the engine.
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Scott
Thanks for clarification. I reviewed the diagram you on page 29. The tank I have is a standard C&C tank that was used in all the boats made in Rhode Island in 1986. All 4 ports, fuel input, vent, fuel to engine and fuel return are on the top. Therefore, this doesn't conform with the diagram on page 29. I too do not understand that pictorial of the line showing it exiting and returning to the tank near the top and bottom. I don't think it applies in my situation.
My experiment with the temporary fuel tank will also include placing
the tank at the correct elevation with the column of fuel in the line going up in height above both the engine and tank. It must remain primed during all conditions of operation and non operation to prevent engine failure. The model for this boat requires I simulate fuel rising above in between the tank and engine without loosing prime. If my test allows the engine to operate without fading I will leave the temporary tank configuration over night to see if any slow air leak causes loss of siphon.
We'll see!
The fuel lines I've replaced are all the low pressure sections between the fuel tank, exterior filter and lift pump. That is
two sections. I have an external filter near the engine. Eaton RACOR 12SUL rated at 15 gal/hr.and I changed the cartridge recently. It is followed by a short section of hose that connects to the lift pump input which is the second piece of hose I replaced.
Today I attended the Rockland Boat Show and received some suggestions from a Yanmar dealer. He says they see tanks that have leaks in the lift tube inside the tank thus loosing siphon if they are old and corroded. To test for that possibility the plan is to use another tank of fuel by placing a hose into this external fuel tank, make sure it's primed and go through the same under load tests. If the problem goes away I'll know that the problem is most likely inside the tank. If it still occurs, then it would indicate a problem with the lift pump.
I hope to get time to go the next step tomorrow.
Page 29? what it the info there that you are aiming at?
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Scott
Today I spent another four hours on the engine fade out problem. It's still doing it after I replaced the fuel line today. The air intake line is free of any blockage. The Sea Foam only makes the engine purred more smoothly but it stopped both times after running about 20 minutes, once at 2500 rpm and the other time at 2000 rpm. It just plain slows down and stops within a minute of first sounding of an RPM decrease.
I took great pain to prime the fuel line going to the external filter, the filter, the line from the filter to the fuel feed pump, fuel strainer and bled the air out of the fuel injection pump. Both times the engine started right up and ran smoothly all the way up to 3500 rpm under load. I also checked the new fuel line by siphoning it into a gallon container and the flow appears normal for the height of fall. I drew a quart each time to make sure there was good flow. The fuel is clean but a little darker than new fuel. The amount of sludge that appears on the bottom is minimal.
With both attempts the engine ran beautifully before fading and stopping in under a minute. The first time I took a look in the large bleed screw on the fuel strainer and found it to be dry and I could add about a full canister amount to fill it. The fuel line before that point were dry with the external filter having a reduced amount of fuel. It clearly showed me that both times the engine became fuel starved and shut down. The new fuel lime lost it's prime.
I am dumbfounded! Any new ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
In addition to the starter button and ignition key, your problem could be one of two other choices. Starter motor solenoid or Starter motor armature itself.
On my boat, it was sold to me with the disclosure that the batteries were going bad causing the problem you describe. Upon a more close examination it turned out not to be the case at all. When I have the ignition on and hit the starter button, I sometimes only get a click from the engine area. It sounds like the solenoid closing but not turning on the starter motor. It only does it sometimes so I just keep trying the starter button two or three times before the engine rolls over and starts the engine immediately. I hope to make it until fall when I can removed the starter motor/solenoid assembly and examine the issue more closely using a 12 volt battery in my shop. At that time, depending on the outcome of further analysis I will rebuild the motor and/or replace the solenoid. It could be either. To buy a new starter motor/solenoid from Yanmar costs over $700 USD....depending on local tax I don't believe the solenoid is sold separately?
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Thank you for the new suggestion. I’m going through the fuel gantlet with this boat.
I started with air getting into the filter due to the canister being over tightened thus the filter retaining ring required vice grips to get it open. There was air coming from the bleeders all the time and weeping fuel from the o-ring joint at the bottom of the filter cup. New gaskets and an o-ring weren't enough to fix it. I ended by replacing the filter assembly and put new gaskets. The new filter can be hand tightened with a solid stop when it's tight. Also the fuel line between the filter and the lift pump was replaced.
Now the engine runs well at under 2000 rpm on the day I prime the line between the tank and the first filter. The second day there is air in the line causing failure shortly after placing the engine under load. In all cases, I can't get it to run at 3000 rpm without fading down in RPM. Air is getting to the injector!
I will explore the tank's fuel line fittings again and make sure there air leaks and there isn't blockage in the breather line going to the stern. I am also checking the external cartridge filter to make sure it is the correct specification. I’ve heard that there are is a possibility of a filter with too fine a spec that will create a vacuum condition in the fuel line with it run under higher rpm.
The saga continues
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Ideas:
I'd take the components off the new float fuel sensor and remount them on the old support that sticks down inside the tank. First recheck the top flange with the mounting holes to make sure it's all still free of any cracks etc. Once you have the assembly ready to go down inside the tank, I'd switch on the engine key and run the float arm up and down outside the tank to make sure you see the needle changing as it should with different arc angles between the float and the support arm.
When you tank out the old unit be sure to note the orientation of the float inside. You should make sure you place the float arm in the same direction.
I did all that and my gauge works great.
Good Luck
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Today I went back and checked the engine and discovered more of the same problem. The engine starts but will not sustain 2500 to 3000
rpm for more than 10 or 15 mins before it declines and stops. I found that it was running off the fuel in the engine's filter plus external filter. It seems to stop when the long fuel line running from the external filter to the tank had refilled with air and lost prime. It will not re-prime off the lift pump. There are no signs of leaks in the fuel lines. I'm beginning to think there might be something about the tank internal fuel pipe which reaches down to near the bottom. The anchorage is a little rough which would cause the fuel to slop around inside but it's 3/4 full. Being that full, I wonder how air can get into the internal pipe inside the tank?
When I replaced the fuel level sensor I put a tape measure inside to find out how much fuel was there. In doing so, the tape measure came up from the bottom clean without any sludge.
Using a hand pump attached to the fuel line at the engine, I can prime the line and it will run fine afterwards but the following day I start to see these problems with fading engine and stopping. There is no check valve in the line. I did add Sea Foam today. The sage continues
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Scott
Thanks
I'll try that. I see no sign of a check valve. Is it
possible to be inside before the line exits the tank? I
assume that if I have a perfect line without any possibility
of air infiltration, a check valve isn't needed?
Today I bought a hand pump and fitted it
with 1/4" fuel line nipples so I could try getting
a solid fill of fuel in the line from the tank
to the filter. I pumped it into a container
and found no signs of sludge but there was lots of air
through out the pumping process before I got a solid flow
going. Tomorrow I was going to see if the line, which I put back
into the filter and ran the engine up to full throttle (3500 rpm) under full load for about 20 mins, is still free of air. I will
also pick up the Sea Foam on the way to the boat.
I'll publish the outcome on the forum.
Regards
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Hello all
My Mark V with the 1GM10 has fuel problems and will stop running
by fading down in RPM when run up to 3000 RPM after it's been on
for at least 15 mins.
If I prime the line from the engine's "lift pump" in line before the on board filter, I find some bubbles that would indicate air in the fuel line. I can clear it buy using the lift pump but think the line coming from the fuel tank may be the problem. (aft from the tank to the engine is not gravity fed and relies on the engine's "lift pump" to keep the fuel coming from the tank and hold fuel in the line between the tank and engine via an external filter assembly)
I'm thinking that the line from the tank isn't staying primed but I can't tell. If I prime the lines on the engine it runs but fades and never reaches full RPM except just after I prime all the lines.
I've checked the engine for weeping fuel at all banjo connectors and bleeders are without any signs. The filter can located after the lift pump was a problem due to being over tightened and did leak before I replaced it.
Question: How do you check the section of fuel line coming from the tank? That's to say, being primed and staying primed?
Thanks
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
Hello Colin
I hope you get the vent working on your tank so you can get fuel into
the tank. I have a new to me Mark V built in Rhode Island and the gauge was not functioning. I found a form-fit&function replacement and installed it by getting to the top of the tank via the seat locker.
The tank on my boat came with a full tank as I discovered by removing the old gauge and sticking a tape measure down inside the tank. I haven't yet had to fill it. However, if you can get fuel into the tank by filling it very slowly, that would indicate a blockage in the air vent. You might even notice air bubbles trying to escape as you fill slowly to prevent back ups. I'd also wonder if the Yanmar would run properly due to no air intake? The engine itself runs with its own close loop system by to pipes going to and from the engine. That means you should see three ports on the top of your tank. The vent exits out the stern at the starboard side of the transom. You should see a brass fitting or the tubing under the seat going back to that area from the tank. Make sure the tube is clear and the part that goes down inside the tank should bubble if you blow into the tube.
I replaced my fuel level system with a plug and play replacement. In fact, I removed the hing with the float components from the new assembly and put them on the shorter support taken out of my tank. The hole pattern seal at the top of both are identical. Google search with this part number:
Fuel Sender
Code F
P/N 90424P, 240 - 33 ohm 4-24" max tank depth
Manufactured by
Veethree Elec. & Marine LLC
http://pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/veethree-electronics-and-marine-llc/sender/32520-16921-_2.html
Although listed through many suppliers you can get it
via E-Bay, there are others who stock it.
I have only used a quarter tank since early June even though the engine has been used for about 30 hours at 2500 rpm.
Please feel free to ask questions
John Lawrence
Northern Dancer, Mark V, 1986
Muscongus Cove, Maine
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