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I would like to announce that the C&C 27 Annual Spring Meeting will be held at Etobicoke Yacht Club on Tuesday April 11, 2006 at 19:00 hours. All C&C 27 owners, spouses and crew are welcome whether they are members at present or not.
The Directors will present their reports (quickly). We will discuss the coming sailing season and decide which events we will designate as qualifying events for the various Association trophies.
The Directors also propose to revise some parts of the present Constitution. The most far-reaching changes have been brought about by the change to the standard sail sizes permitted by PHRF-LO. Lake Ontario PHRF handicapping has always been out of line with other PHRF districts as to where the sail sizes changed with respect to creating your 3-second increments of penalty. Most other districts penalize your boat once your headsail exceeds 155% of your “J” measurement, then at 165%, 175% etc., whereas PHRF-LO has used 153%, 163%, 173%, etc. As of Jan. 1, 2006, PHRF-LO adopted a base of up to 155% with no penalty, with a 3-second penalty for each 10% increment.
The 27 Association has had a maximum headsail size set at 170% for the Mark 1, 165% for the Mk 2, 160 for the Mk 3 and 168% for the Mk 4 (which is the same sail as a Mk 3's but designated differently due to the reduced “J” of the Mk 4) These sails resulted in penalties under PHRF of 6, 6, 3 and 6 seconds respectively.
The Directors will be proposing a change of maximum headsail sizes to conform with PHRF-LO; this will in all cases reduce penalties. This will not require you to rush out and purchase new sails to be competitive as your existing sails will be grandfathered for the purposes of 27 Class-sanctioned racing. They may need to be altered, though slightly, to benefit under the PHRF-LO rules. In addition, you should have your sails re-measured by your PHRF-LO handicapper if we adopt the new size limitations, to establish if alterations would be required and if so, what. As an example, I had my own 4-year-old North Kevlar 160% #1 sail re-measured and it is actually 156% right now, so my sailmaker can easily tweak it down to 155% and I will gain back 3 seconds on my PHRF-LO rating. (I wondered why I was getting my butt kicked at my club on Wed. nights, yet able to hold my own sometimes at Class events!!!)
So the proposed changes will be:
Old PHRF-LO penalty New
Mark 1 = 165% [present = 170%] -6 sec -3 sec
Mark 2 = 165% [present = 165%] -6 sec -3 sec
Mark 3 = 155% [present = 160%] -3 sec 0 sec
Mark 4 = 165% [present = 168%] -6 sec -3 sec
Under the new proposal, the Mk 3 and 4 would no longer have theoretically identical headsails as was in the past. The Mark 4's headsail would be 2.64 inches bigger if in fact it was made to a full 165%. I really don't think it is a big issue as this difference can change in just one year of shrinkage and even vary initially from sailmaker to sailmaker and from different materials. I don't feel that the 2.64 inches will make a difference in speed and since most race more on the home front under PHRF, we don't want to encumber those with Mk 4's making them have their headsail made to 163% or 164% to make the 3's and 4's completely identical.
The other major change in PHRF-LO is the downsizing of the max girth of the spinnakers. Previously, it was 183% but it has been brought down to 180% to conform to other PHRF areas. They are grandfathering all 183% existing spinnakers so that no penalty will occur. Accordingly, the Association directors are also suggesting we make the same change to our class spinnakers - downsizing to 180% on any spinnakers built after the meeting but allowing any existing 183%'s to race for the life of the sail.
I think you agree that these changes will not be a cause to rush out and buy new sails, and you would in fact lose only a little sail area compared with the existing rules.
A few other small changes are also being proposed to allow for e-mailing and such, now that we are into a different electronic age.
The changes are being placed into their final format and copies will be mailed to existing members along with a proxy vote for those members who want to vote but won't be able to make the meeting. It will also be posted on our website. I invite your prompt responses and any suggestions.
I apologize for not having a Fall Awards Meeting. However, due to budgetary constraints we felt it was prudent not to have one. By not having that expense and thanks to the efforts of Kathleen Timmis and David Weatherston with their membership drive, we are looking much better now financially. The new proposals will also include only one Annual Meeting as opposed to the 2 at present and this should help save costs in the future (a second or any other meeting may still be called at anytime though if so required).
Back in the old days when there were 15 to 25 C&C 27's on the line at all events in the Toronto area, the annual meetings were great for building morale and increasing membership interest. However, nowadays much of the cameraderie within the Association is developed via our Website. We feel that this is a very valuable asset to all of us and to the future of the Class Association, but it does have significant costs. It's great to see the support from members who are outside of the Lake Ontario / Ottawa area and I think they realize there is a great benefit to all of us in keeping the Association and the website going! Everyone's support is required as “we are in the same boat together”.
I look forward to meeting with all that will be able to make it out to the meeting and promise to make this as quick as possible so as not to bore anyone.
Cheers,
Larry Bayer
Yogi Bear
President C&C 27 Class Association.
I have recently received a complaint about the ad for a vaginal odour remedy on this site. What has this got to do with sailing and how could we stoop so low, I am asked.
For those who are annoyed by this and other dopey ads on these pages, please note that this is nothing to do with us. The ad arrangement is, in effect, a form of rent for our "free" Forum software. These ads showed up without warning last spring. Presumably the ads are placed globally on all "free" forums, without regard for the general content of the site, which means that questions here on engines attract ads for ski-boat props and "Odor in the Cabin" has attracted an ad on the topic of vaginal odour. Charming.
Anyway, as I implied, the revenue from these ads goes 100% to the Forum software's developer, not us. If we had more money, we'd buy an ad-free version of the Forum. If the ads bother you, just keep this in mind when we do our annual membership drive.
David Weatherston
Admin
Hi,
Dave W. has replied to various versions of this question elsewhere in this forum. Do a search of the forum using the forum's own search button for "What to look for?" and "Buying Mk III" for answers to a number of questions.
The crack that you see between the keel and the hull is known as the C&C smile and is found on many C&C's, 27's in particular. It is the result of flexing between the two materials (lead/fibreglass) and will reappear with a year (in most cases) of being repaired/filled/faired with epoxy, etc. I have heard the it can be 'fixed' for around 5 years using a fibreglass "bandage" approach but have no direct expeience here. I tend to fill it as part of the spring prep routine if it grows beyond the crack stage. Otherwise it's not a problem.
A survey is definitely a good idea. Also, as a preliminary step, if you can get your hands on a moisture meter (most marine yards have one though they may not be willing to lend it) you may want to hold on to your $$ and see if there are any major problems obvious off the bat. Take readings around the fittings on the deck (shrouds, handrails, winches, cleats, anything that bolts through the deck). A reading of 7% is pretty normal with 15% being the highest you want to see. Keep in mind that steel plates can affect the readings though backing plates shouldn't be a problem. It is best to read the meter's manual before using it. Anything over 15% spells real trouble. If you find a number of spots you might want to save the $$ a surveyor will cost you (unless the boat is free, you are really handy and a masochist, to boot). If it looks ok to your basic testing then you will probably want to move on to a qualified surveyor.
As to the leak issue, yes, water in the bilge suggests a probable leak if the boat has been on the hard all season. Some people luck out and find and fix a leak first time out but the majority of us spend anywhere from a couple of days to the rest of our boating lives trying to find them all. If you buy the boat and end up looking for a leak post a new thread question here as to the best way to approach it and you will undoubtedly get lots of replies.
The furler may require a new forestay to fit it (thus maybe answering why it is not currently utilized) so it's hard to answer that question without further info. If it's set up to utilize the current forestay setup (IE: the furler was only taken off for reason of personal preference), a handy guy should have little difficulty setting it up with a little fiddling around. That said, absolutely nothing in boat repair or maintainance is without unexpected difficulties. It's like Murphy's Law on a specialized marine basis which should be modified from "If anything can go wrong it will" to include "if you need it, it will fall overboard".
Hope this helps.
Gord.
Greetings.
We'd like you to join the C&C 27 Association, if you don't already
belong.
As a C&C 27 owner, you already know you're sailing one of the best
production boats ever built. As a registered contributor to our Web
site's Forum, you already know
- that the 27 Association's Web site tells you everything you need
to know about the history and development of the C&C 27;
- that you have instant access to the site's detailed information
on major setup and maintenance issues, along with sources for the
supplies you need to make a confident, long-lasting fix for whatever
ails your boat; and
- that whenever you need more, a network of interested 27 sailors
will give you the benefit of their experience and unbiased advice on our
lively Forum -- within days if not hours.
You may not know, though, that we need your help to keep it going. All
of the Association's work is done by volunteers, 27 owners like you,
planning, organizing, working on the Web site and so on. Hosting a Web
site, though, is not free, and hosting a photo-rich site like ours is
more expensive than hosting a simple text site. This cost must be paid
by membership fees, our only source of income and support.
Why not join the sailors from Lake Michigan to Florida who support our
site and our work to maintain interest in the C&C 27 (and support its
value). For just $25 Canadian or $20 US (check or money order), you'll
receive:
- a year's membership in the 27 Association;
- a downloadable Acrobat pdf copy of the 27 owner's manual;
- a nylon class flag you'll be proud to fly (new members only);
- a laminated membership card.
Support the 27! Support the Association!
Read our Membership Page and fill in our Membership Form. Join us today!
Sincerely,
Larry Bayer,
President
C&C 27 Association
A non-profit volunteer association of C&C 27 owners
Photos and a description of the work done on Budge are now available in Black Arts..
Just a thought, but...can you add a shackle of the same type that the jib tack attaches to as found inside the forestay / deck connection, but have it aligned outside the forestay rather than inside? All it would call for is a longer clevis pin to hold it all together and a slightly wider base on the new shackle to fit outside the already present one(s). We have two tack shackles on ours so I don't see why three would be a problem, or a second if there's only one right now. Alternatively, if you have two shackles already and only use one (i.e. no sail changes during racing), you might just flip one to the outside next time the forestay is unatached. (Make sure you use a halyard or two tensioned to the bow to keep the mast upright if you decide to do it mid-season. I only mention it because I've seen a number of masts fall into the lake. Some people seem to think all masts are stepped through the deck. Surprise! <IMG src="http://www.cc27association.com/f3/toast/emoticons/icon_wink.gif">)
Gord.
Do a search for '27' on this LORC page: <A href="http://www.lorc.org/whois.htm">http://www.lorc.org/whois.htm</A> . It will give you a good idea of the spread (around Toronto, anyway). The ratings in the 180's are for spinnaker, the ratings closer to 200 are white sail. Points are added and subtracted for a number of modifications including sail area, furling jib, folding prop, etc... Most of the boats here are Mark III. Mark V's will be closer to 173 for spinnaker.
1>[Moved from "What to look for?"]
David---I know there are several posts about the prospects of replacing the A-4 with a diesel-----I'm interested in the results of your personal investigation---and what you selected (my choice would be the Yanmar 2GMF---) . Also, what install problems you have considered.
Dave Tinder
DAWN BREAKER Mk3
Ft Myers
Canadian Warren & Mike,
I disagree with one thing you say Mike. I almost NEVER start on two batteries (only in an emergency with really drained batteries). I always alternate which battery I use to run the engine each time I start it. My concept is that one battery is the "spare", and on an overnight at anchor I might run it down. A group 27 will easily start a small 4 cylinder diesel (I did for years), so should be no problem for the one and two lung vibration machines. If you try to use both batteries and one is really discharged, then (as I understand it it), the weak one drains the strong one. Also, regardless of the claims of some battery charger manufacturers, I ALWAYS charge them separately; you can't go wrong that way. I wired my low-amp battery charger to the selector switch output side, use the same switch to select charging target.
I agree with Mike on this: absolutely DO NOT switch batteries when the engine is running. You will likely trash the alternator. BTW, I use a cheap Radio Shack meter - has always seemed to serve me well and seems consistent with other meters.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Warren Smith (AKA Tropical Warren)
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
Warren,
What type of multi meter are you using? The reason I ask is that 16 volts is a really, really high reading. Personally I've never seen 12V battery with a reading much over 13.5V. If you do not have a good digital multi meter consider picking one up. I'm using a Radio Shack which is about $80 but I do not suggest it (it takes too long to produce a reading). Analog meters will not produce an accurate enough reading to correctly maintain batteries or test a wiring harness.
Pura Vida has two group 27 deep cycle batteries to spin the Yanmar and run the lights. I would not consider returning to anything smaller. I"m not sure if there is a standard for "House 1", "Start 2" but when you operate the boat the battery selector switch should always be on both. Depending on your alternator, switching between banks with the motor on could do some damage.
Finally the length of time it takes to recharge a battery is a matter of of several factors including type of battery, type of charger. From my limited experience deep cycle batteries cannot be brought to voltage as quickly as starting batteries.
Mike
Pura Vida
Dear Canadian Warren,
I don't think I have time or room to adequately answer all of your questions. But here are some:
- Electrical. You need to do some reading. Start with http://www.islandnet.com/robb/marine.html#Introduction and then continue with word searches on browsers like "marine electrical" or 12v electrical management" etc., just skip the commercial sites. Don't be afraid to explore other association websites, some of the classics really have some good stuff: Cal, Catalina, etc. Don't forget to use the search option on this site - try "batteries".
- There's an old saying: "amatures overbuild". If I had a diesel, I would use nothing less than two group 27 size batteries. If you use house circuits, get two batteries. I use an 8hp Yamaha 4-stroke outboard, and I have two gp 27 batteries. By the way, experts built the Titantic, an amature built the Ark.
Nice spring day here, 76F, S wind 10-20 mph, have to remember the hat, sunglasses, and sunblock to go with flip-lops and swimtrunks as i depart for the marina!
Warren Smith
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
[This post and three of those following have been moved from another thread. Unfortunately, the forum software does not allow correct attribution in the header.]
Warren............(Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeez one of us is going to have to do a "name change", must be awfull confusing to other readers don't you think?)
As I was sizing up the tank removal this week, I got curious (one of my many faults) about the one existing battery. I, up to now had no reason to test it. I just assumed it would be dead from sitting in the boat all winter and from general neglect (remember, I'm told the previous owner only used the boat once last season). Imagine my surprise when I moved the master battery switch from "off" to #1 battery and all the interior lights worked!!
I then put a volt meter on the battery and it read 16volts.......I was quite surprised. I'm not saying I'd trust it yet........but just surprised that it held it's charge over a very cold/long winter. It does not appear to be anything more than your typical 6-1/2" x 10" car battery.
I'm confused about "start" batteries vs "house" batteries vs "deep cycle" batteries.........
So now here are some questions
Is the "start" battery supposed to be position #1 and house #2 ? or does it matter?.....I'm just assuming some uniformity would be good here, especially if one were to move back and forth between different boats.
Any time I've purchased a battery for my cars, I've always purchased the most powerful model for that particular car...................therefore I'm thinking I will do the same for the START battery on the boat ...........is my line of thinking correct here? Can a START battery be a DEEP cycle battery?
A deep cycle battery, I'm assuming, is for the "house" battery position but NOT correct for a START battery?
Does it take any longer to recharge a deep cycle battery than a standard battery?
Look forward to any and all replies..................Snowing now and expecting 5-15 cms (that's 2-6 inched for you guys in the south)..............Warren
Speaking of Tremco tape . . . . I am afraid I will have to attack at least a portion of the hull/deck joint, can't seem to kill the leaks. Lot of advice says don't pull the toerail - but I am running out of options. Any suggestion to a good replacement for Tremco?
Warren Smith
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
[Moved from 'Handrail attachment' – Admin]
You can find most specialized fasteners at a place like this: <A href="http://www.brafasco.com/home.htm">http://www.brafasco.com/home.htm</A> but of course it depends where you are, plus they sometimes require a minimum order of (about) $30. They have other useful stuff, though, so it's pretty easy to find something to spend the minimum on.
Teak plugs are usuall readily available at any decent marine shop. You will want to place them with a sealant that will 1) take stain/cetol/varnish, and 2) release if/when you need to take them out again. Then sand them carefully to match the curve of the handrail and stain. They usually come small bags of about 12 plugs and are of 2 different sizes: 3/8" and 1/2", I think. Don't forget to line the grain up when installing.
For those who may be wondering: the easiest way to get old plugs out is to take a thin screw and screw it in until it grabs the plug. Then pull with pliers. Or, if the screw is long enough, just keep turning until it hits the sunken fastener head below and turns the plug out. You may want to consider carefully scoring any varnished surface around the rim of the plug beforehand to reduce the risk of splintering around the plug.
Gord.
Can you make a reccomendation on how course the grit should be?
Obviously the coarser the grit, the quicker the job will go. Warning: this is the dangerous way to approach the issue. If you use coarse grit paper/disks, say 40 grit, it will cut through the paint quite quickly, but also into the gelcoat. This produces an effect called 'profiling'. This essentially produces flat areas or, even worse, scalloped grooves where impatience leads you to give in to temptation and use the edge of the sander to speed things up. Bad, bad, bad, but almost everybody does it (and later wishes they hadn't). If you are going to do the job ,it is worth doing properly and this takes time and patience. Having done it about 20 times before on a wide variety of boats, here's the basic rules:
Start with 80 grit disks with a random orbital sander, 6" or 8". Place the sander flat on the hull BEFORE you start it up (every time). This will help prevent accidental gouging that can occur bringing a full speed disk into contact with the hull at an angle. It can happen VERY quickly. As soon as you see the gelcoat through the paint, move to a different area. Don't try to clear all the paint off at ths time. Once you've gone over the entire hull with the 80 grit, do it again with 120, working right down to the gelcoat this time. This will give you a quite acceptable surface and you'll probably never want to see a sander again in your life. Some people continue this to 400 grit, so when you want to kill yourself after the first two hours of sanding just imagine how it could be worse.
This will likely take you a at least a few days to do properly, so be ready to invest time. And, you will almost certainly want a full face 3-M mask and painters coveralls. It is well worth the investment. It's a VERY messy job. Protect your eyes and lungs.
Now you can put on the new paints. If you use VC-TAR, note that it is difficult to get a smooth finish with it. Some people lay down an epoxy barrier coat, but I don't know how well it goes on over Gelcoat. As for the VC-17, yes, you can pretty much just roll it on like house painting. It has the interesting property that it will re-liquify any previous layers which helps with smoothness. It will not add to or subtract from the level of smoothness the hull had before it goes on. The first season, you should apply 2 coat of VC-17. One coat a year after that should suffice.
If you decide to try it, Good Luck. Remember, the key is patience.
Gord.
hi Hugh,
We have the same coating system on ours: VC-17 over Tar. You'll probably find that you hit lead no matter what, unless someone has been there before you and covered the joint with epoxy. If the joint is that messy, this is quite likely. The cracking of the joint between hull and keel is known as the 'C&C smile' and the only way I have heard of to get rid of it is to glass it over. Even then it's still only a temporary fix (maybe 5-10 years).
I have been fairing ours every spring and finding it cracked unevenly again in the fall, mostly due to the fact that the weather has never been right before launch for the epoxy to set correctly. This year it was out for other work in the summer and I repeated the work in fair weather so come haul-out later this week I'll know if it 'took' more thoroughly.
So, basically, if you don't want to strip the whole hull now [and, hey, who does] you can clean out the join area, picking out any loose and flaky bits, fair it with epoxy mixed with a filler [cabosil or micro-balloons or whatever you like] and then tar/17. That's going to be about as good as it gets. I keep thinking there's got to be a way to 'pre-crack' or groove the joint to clean up the amount of cracking during the season, but I haven't figured out yet how to do it effectively without profiling the keel shape.
Best,
Gord.
FOLLOW UP: Now that the boat is out of the water I've had a chance to look at the join. Apparently having the opportunity to do it in warm weather helped a lot as there is only slight stress cracking this year. Yipee.
G>
Hey Jim,
I noticed your comment about bottom blasting under the fuel tank string. I had the misfortune (or good fortune) to spot a few blisters on the underside this fall <IMG src="http://www.cc27association.com/f3/toast/emoticons/icon_redface.gif" border=0> and am now in the position of having to deal with it. Was it the same in your case? Any learnings you can share?
Rob
Rob Nicholson
Tenacious (1979 MkIII #773) Post moved from original thread to begin new thread. -Admin
Hi John,
Baby-stays are used to replace lower/forward shrouds to improve sail trim, Namely, you can bring the jib in tighter if there is no forward shroud and point better. The lower shrouds are normally tensioned so as to supply pre-bend to the mast when used in co-ordination with upper shroud tension and back-stay tension. So it's reasonable that adjusting the baby-stay will also adjust the pre-bend, which isn't really pre-bend any more since you adjust it on the fly, pulling the middle of the mast forward when you want it, slacking off when you don't. The amount of rake set for the mast will also affect the contribution of each adjustment for your boat. How you use it is, of course, up to you but, basically, you're doing the right thing with your set-up.
Gord
I'm with with Dave on the Canadian Tire Marine battery option. We pull ours out and store them in the basement over the winter hooking them up once a month to a trickle charger over night to keep them fresh - also from Canadian tire: $65 or less. So far (4 years later) they're still going strong.
Gord.
After trying the tapping solution and having it strip again we dealt with the same problem by using a simple nut and bolt arrangement. This required pulling out the somewhat deteriorated wooden shaft plug which we replaced with a more servicable plastic plug to stop water from getting into the rudder. The inside curve on the shaft keeps the nut inside from turning if you take care to line the flat edges up with the vertical of the shaft. This is pretty nuch they way it want's to go so there is no problem here, really. The only issue was the closeness of the inside nut to the through bolt for the tiller. You may have to play with various nut thicknesses to find one that works for you. We used a nylock nut (or aircraft nut, or whatever you like to call them) and it just fit.
So far (1 season since modifying) there have been no problems.
Gord>
Kat's-Paw will be there as will (I believe) Yogi Bear. Both Mark III's, though. Supposedly 5 like boats are needed for a level start so it remains to be seen how that will work.
Gord.
Hi John.
You might want to try posting a crew request on the LORC forum as well. They have a crew bank thread running here: <A href="http://www.lorc.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi">http://www.lorc.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi</A>
Gord.
Can you swage a hinge-clip to the end of the life-line when you get them and clip it to the old fitting on the pulpit? This may prove easier and parts are readily available.
See <A href="http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=Lifelinefit">http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=Lifelinefit</A> for common fitting types.
Gord.
John,
I don't know if the various Mark's will be racing level or not. I'll have to look into it and get back.
Any thoughts from other participants (current or hopeful) on the different mark's racing level as per last years EYC (I think) regatta?
Gord.
Update: April 19, 2004:
There are currently 4 boats planning to atend this event. Just 2 more for our own start!
Gord.