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Joe:
Suite yorself about the Baby Stay, but just be warned it's not attached to much under the deck and has been a source of leakage on a lot of boats where the owner put tension on it. On my boat we have it on a 4:1 purchase with a snap shackle so it can be easily removed. The only time it's ever on is in large waves with heavy wind. Judging by your hull number it looks like your boat was a US Built boat and you therefore likely have the stiff mast.
Steve
Guys:
Mast rake has nothing to do with shims especially with a deck stepped mast. It's all about how long the forestay is, the greater the measurement between the bottom pin on the forestay turnbuckle and the top pin at the masthead on the forestay. The longer the forestay the greater the mast rake, simple. Putting a shim under the toe (foreward edge) of the mast butt at the step will help induce mast bend.
One thing that you have to consider is that there were a number of mast builders for the MkV's and consequently different mast sections. I have seen at least 3 different mast sections and each one has a different bend charcteristic. Some are very bendy some are very stiff.
Mast bend has more to do with the Mainsail and how your sailmaker cut (designed) the sail. If you have a bendy mast you can have a sail that has more draft (fullness) because you can flatten the sail, for upwind work or heavy wind sailing. If you have a stiff mast you need a sail that is fairly flat to begin with because you can't bend the mast a lot to flatten it and you will have to rely more on haylard/cunningham tension to do the job.
As for the baby stay I'd be very, very carefull about using it and don't rely on it to do the job of bending the mast. The baby stay was never intended to do that, it's purpose was to stop mast pumping in heavy seas and nothing more. On the other hand if you wat to spend a lot of time fixing leaks in the deck and eventually repairing the core in the deck around the baby stay go ahead and crank on the tension.
Back to the rake issue: if you cant slack on the forestay enough to get the rake you need put a toggel or 2 under the forestay turnbuckle.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working MkV #75
No scrim, it really won't give you that much additional life to the sail.
Steve
I have slugs on Still Knot Working's main and she is no slug!
I don't think you will see and loss of performance and you will enjoy sailing the boat more, especially if you are short handed.
Steve Reid
Your sailmaker isn't entirely wrong. But the question is are you going to race or are you just cruising? Assuming you are going to race and assuming you are serious about it, then you have to accept the fact that a Genoa is only going to last (give you optimum performance) for about 4 - 5 seasons. In order for any sailmaker to be able to build a sail for a Mark V, that will have the proper shape and draft control, needed to get oprimum race performance you need to consider the materials available. There is Dacron, Mylar laminate, Mylar Moulded, With Dacron the only way to build a sail that will give you good performance, for more than a season or 2, is to go with a cross weave stabalized Dacron (Square Weave) and build the sail as a triradial design. There are a variety of Mylar type of materials on the market most are a combination of mylar film bonded together over various types of filaments to give it strenght, Some have a thin (light cloth) "Scrim" adheared to one side of the material, this adds some additional strenght, but don't expect too much.
I've had both Square Weave Dacron and Mylar for my Mark V, I was a strong proponant of the Square Weave, until 2 years ago when I had a new #1 built out of Flex, (the latest generation of Mylar type materials) while the Flex was more expensive, per yard, than the Square Weave the sail could be built as a cross cut and therefore less seams and less cost to produce. The sail is standing up really well and last year I had a #2 built out of the same, but heavier, material.
Hope this helps and answers some of your questions.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working Mark V #75
I all depends o how much junk you have stored in the gally and how much beer you have in the ice box. Pretty siple really, the majority of the furnature in the boat is on the stbd. side and as was previously noted the second battery, if you have one is on the stbd. side. I really have to keep a close eye on how much stuff we collect on Still Knot Working and keep any heavy stuff, tool box etc. on the port side under the bunks so it's a low as possible.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working MkV #75
I know the Masons The Store in Port Credit Ont. has them in stock in various sizes. You can email them here info@thestoremasons.com just measure the size of the hole and they can fix you up. The plugs don't weigh a lot so shipping would be minimal.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working Mk V #75
Tony:
If you prop is in sad shape due to electrolisis, you need to get your electrical system looked at, sounds like you have a stray current problem and that's not good for you or those moored near you. Or it could be the wiring at you club or marina that's causing the problem, but in either case it's dangerous, could be deadly to anyone who goes in the water near you boat or neighbours boats.
A few years ago I foundthat I had a problem with the ground wire on the main panel in my Mark V, every time I plugged into shore power or on the hard in the winter, the shore power breaker at source would trip. Got an electritian to check it out, fixed it and no more problems.
Steve Reid
Allen, David et All
Points made and well taken. Check the class rules, that's why we wrote them. We don't allow backstay whips for the very reason David states. We allow you to have as much roach as PHRF allows and as much roach as you can tack, but the back stay must be attached to the original designed position. A crane for the spinnaker hoist doesn't provide for any additional height. All a crane does is reduce the wear and tear on the spinnaker haylard. Is that a bad thing? Does it make the boat faster?
As for strict one design, there are at least 3 different masts being used on Mark V's. I know of at least 2 boats that have masts of different lengths and those are original factory masts.
The point being that the boats may have been built to the same design, but that is more likely as close as we get to one design.
Steve
David:
I'll try and remember to take a picture in the spring pre-stepping. As of right now the mast is down derigged and in it's canvas sock and about as buried in the mast rack at EYC as it could be. So if I can remember I'll get a shot in the spring.
Steve
Rob:
It is class legal so long as you don't increase the height, as in you go streight forward off the top of the mast. I did it on Still Knot Working, after the first season of racing. It really helps to reduce the wear on the haylard block also a lot less friction at the top of the mast, especially if you are launching the chute from the companionway.
The first attempt that I made was to purchase a large boom bail from the local marine supply and using a vice bent the bail to fit. I ran a long bolt horizontally through the top of the mast and allowed the bail to rest on the small step that is up there. That lasted the season but it did distort, so using the bail as a referance had a local stailness fabricator I got him to make up a stronger crane and had them weld a bar across it about an inch aft of the front of the bail. The bar that was welded across keep the block centred on the bail but does allow it to slide partially to the side when you are reaching and for launches and douses. The system has worked well now for the past 3 years and the block up there is still in good shape. If you'd like I'll try and do up a sketch and mail it to you, I have your address.
Steve
Rob:
It's a heavy sucker all right, don't get your toe between it and the ground.
I've never had a reason to cut into the mark V rudder, but I suspect you will find it's solid, probably wood with a fiberglass skin over it.
Steve Reid
For what it's worth, I can attest to the fact that blue Heron is a fast boat. We've been sailing her while Still Knot Working is in the hospital recovering from her close encounter with Minx back in August. So far we've been able to uphold Still Knot Working's reputation on the race course.
I sure hope that a non racer buys Blue Heron ,just kidding on that note, B.H. is a fast boat for sure.
Steve Reid
still knot Working Mk V #75
Rob:
Always willing to help if I can.
We launch and retreive the spinnaker from the companion way hatch. I'm a strong believer in keeping weight off the bow of any boat going to windward, I am also a srong believer in keeping the crew on the rail and keeping them there as quickly and long a possible. Having said that I wanted to have a system of launching and retreiving the spinnaker that could achieve all of those goals. If someone has to go up on the foredeck or onto the bow of the boat, to prep a spinnaker for setting, or if a crew has to go down below to pack the chute for another set, it's taking them away from where they are needed most, on the rail, especially if it's blowing over 10 kts.
We had a bag made by our sailmaker that hange in the companion way the we can launch from and retrieve into. It has some sail battens along the front edge and along the aft edge, those battens protrude out and rest over the companion way hatch slides. We've installed some shock cord that keep it in place and there are some velcro tabs that keep it closed when not in use. The sheet, guy and haylard remain attached all the time we are racing. The bag does have a very important secondary advantage and that is, that seeing as I have an all female crew they find it provides sufficient privacy if they need to go and use the head quickly they don't need to close the head door.
One of the issues you will find, we did the first year we had the boat, is that due to the arrangement at the top of the mast and the way the spinnaker haylards exit the top of the mast there is a lot of friction on the haylard as it comes around and back to the companion way. We solved that problem by having a large stainless steel bail (crane) fabricated and we hang a swivel block off of that, the haylard runs through that block, the bail allows the block to swing around through 180 degrees at the top of the mast. We have a cam cleat on the side of the mast about 18" below the spot where the spinn. haylard exits the mast so that the haylard is hoisted by our mast/foredeck girl, she can then cleat off the haylard when it's hoisted all the way, once we have everything set the pit girl overhauls the slack in the hayleard through the cabin top rope clutch.
When we go to douse, the pit girl gathers in the foot of the spinnaker and then reaches over and releases the rope clutch and drops the chute into the bag. If it comes down clean (no twists), it's ready to go right back up. If it needs to be cleared the pit girl just runs the luffs in the bag and were ready to go. But it means that all fo the crew are up on deck, no one is down below. everyone can be on the rail getting the most out of our upwind performance right at the leeward mark. The only crew person not on the rail immediately is the pit and if we need her out on the rail she can do that and then deal with soring out the chute are a more opportune time on the beat to windward.
Hope this helps, if you have any questions or if anything is not clear please let me know.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working MkV #75
We don't use the swivel base spinnlocks as the take up a larger foot print. We use 3/8" for the spinnsheets because it's a lot easier for the crew to grip. We strip off the cover on the about a third and thats the part we attach to the clews.
We use 1/4 fro our light sheets and those we tie onto the clews.
Steve
Rob:
On Still Knot Working, I ave the Tweakers set up in the following manner.
On the toe rail at the max beam, one hole just aft of the second stantion, I have a small swivle Harken block. We run a braided dacron line (3/16") through that block. The 3/16 line has a small harken bullit block attached (needs to be large enough to accept the 3/8" spinn sheet). The 3/16 line then runs back to another small Harken swivle block that is attached to the toe rail about 8 holes aft of the 3rd. stantion. the line then runs through a Spinnlock PXR0206 cam cleat that is mounted on the deck just aft of the primariy winch base. The cam cleat is located as close to the winch base as possible so that if you are sitting on the deck hiking in heavy wind you won't be getting goosed by the cleat.
I chose the Spinnlock cam cleats because you simply lift the line up to release and down to lock, it's simple and fool proof.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working
Mark V #75
Charlie:
Thanks for responding and answering the questions, sounds like you are doing a lot of the right things or at least you are trying to go in the right direction.
1. Roller furling is not the best solution if pointing is a priority for you. First of all it's difficult to get enough luff tension to get the optimum sail shape for all wind conditions. It's also difficult to get enough tension on the head stay to minimize head stay sag. You reall have to load up the backstay on the Mark V to get the headstay as streight as possible. The other problem with roller furling is that the sail has to be cut higher off the deck and lower from the top to allow it to roll up, that reduces the total sail area you have to work with.
2. Sounds like you are trimming the sail to the correct inboard angle. The next thing you need to check (and it will varey every time you go out sailing) is if the lead needs to go forward or back a hole or 2. This changes depending on wind shear between the level at the water and that at the top of the mast. Some days there is a lot and others not much if any. We usually set up in a mid position and then sail upwind and look at the ticklers on the luff of the Genoa. If, as you slowly luff up to windward, they break even top to bottom your good to go. Tack and check the other side. If you find that one set of ticklers are breaking sooner than the others you have to adjust the lead forward or back. If the top breaks early move forward, if the bottom set break early move back. As you tension the haylard that will also effect your lead position, more tension , lead back, less lead forward.
3. 4 is a good number to sail with for white sail, you could use one more in heavier wind. The important thing is to keep the boat as flat as possible (as little heal as you can). Remember "Flat is Fast" the more the boat heals the less effecient the keel is and the more weather helm you induce, which translates into drag. Don't be afraid to let the traveller down and the main rag a bit if it helps the boat speed and reduced heal. We watch the speed gauge like a hawk in heavier wind and usually find that by dropping the traveler down an inch or so it brings the speed up, as much a 1/4 knot at times, the main might look ugley, but if you are going faster who cares.
4. The Allied and the Morgan are gonna be tiugh to beat, but it's doable. The others you should be able to save your time on them. If you are racing time on time, remember that for every boat that owes you time, if you are ahead of them at the start your are cutting into that time that they owe you and the longer you stay ahead of them the less time they have to make up what they owe you. Good position on the line, clear wind and at the favoured end is always the most important thing.
5. Don't know how you have things set up to easily adjust your rake. Or are you confusing rake with mast bend? Rake is set by yhe length of the forestay and is a measurement of the differance in position of the mast head to the base of the mast. In otherwords rake is the amount of distance that your mast head is aft of the base of the mast. It's usually measured at the mast base or at the black band by hanging a weight on a line running from the top of the mast. On my boat we are set up for about 18" of mast rake measured at the black band. Mast bend is the amount of bend, fore and aft, of the mast under tension. We are set up for about 6" of prebend (no tension on the back stay) and around 14" at full back stay tension. Mast bend is used to put a curveture in the mast, therefore the luff of the mainsail which helps to flatten the sail while sailing upwind. Mast bend results from back stay tension which in turn creats headstay tension which in turns provides a streighter luff and flater entry for your genoa.
6. Weight on the rail is good. The Mark V likes it more towards the back of the boat than forward, in heavy air 10+ kts. With 4 guys I'd say Helmsman just aft of the primaries, Maintrimmer just forward of the Primaries and 2 crew on the rail in the area outboard of the big cabin window. In light air don't overdo the heal, you want just enough to induce shape into the sails and as the breeze picks up start moving crew to minimize heal. In light wind move the crew more forward. Helmsman to leeward in the forward corner of the cockpit. Miantrimmer in the companionway, Genoa trimmers to leeward up around the shrouds, one forward one aft. As you start moving those crew move the one aft of the shrouds first, then the one forward.
Hope this helps, let me know how you make out. Next thing will be bottom wotk and keel shape, that'll be your winter assignment.
Steve
Still Knot Working
C&C 27 Mk V #75
Charlie:
I'll try and help you, but first I need you to answer a few questions.
1. Are you sailing with a furler or is your Genoa in a tuff luff or hanked on?
2. How many crew do you sail with?
3. Where do you trim your Genoa to, cockpit combing or deck track?
4. Do you race in a mixed fleet and if so what types of boats are you up against?
If you can answer these questions I'll try and give you some suggestions.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working Mk V #75
Alan:
Cunningham works, as you describes to tension the luff ofthe Main, we use it as a fine adjustment to flatten the sail and the nease it depending on changes in wind strength during a race. some times it's easier to get to the Cunningham (which is on the port side cabin top) or the Main Haylard (which is on the Stbd. side Cabin Top).
The cunningham is sometimes easier to use to add tension because it is essentially a 2:1 purchase.
Steve
Alan:
Your not thinking of your main the same way you would be thinking about your Genoa. With any sail you have 3 basic sail controls. Any sail can undergo changes to it's shape. In light air you want a powerful shape (lost of camber/draft) at around 30/40% aft of the luff. As the wind strength increases you need to alter that shape, moving the draft/camber forward to 25/30%. As the wind continues to increase you want to achieve a flater(faster shape). You move the draft in the sail by tensioning the luff (haylard). your other sail controls are the sheet & the lead position. With a Genoa you tension the sheet to trim the sail to the relative angle of attack to the wind, we do that on the Main with the sheet as well. With the Genoa we move the lead fore and aft, or inboard or out board depending on how much twist we want in the sail. For the main we use the traveler and the outhaul.
So does line stretch affect the sail shape. You bet it does. When a puff/gust hits the sail we want the shape to stay as we set it. We want to be able to pull the sheet in not have it go out. not have the haylard get longer.
Steve
There is a reason why the forum prompts you to review your message before sending.
My Bad, I typed 5/16 and should have typed 7/16 for the Genoa Haylards on Still Knot Working.
Steve
Alan
I think that you will find that haylard stretch = poor sail shape, ask any sail maker and I think they will agree, so in answer to your question some extra weight aloft to reduce stretch is not an issue.
Having said that you will likely find that you can go down a size or even 2 in diameter with the high tech lines that are out there. The only problem will be what is the min. size that your new jammers will hold without slipping cause slipping and stretch are both not good.
When the Mark V's were built they all had dacron sails and yacht draid for haylayrds, dacron stretches so does dacron braid. Now we have mylar/kevlar string sails that don't strech so we need line that doesn't stretch. I wonder where the forces go now? Certainly some of the force goes into making the boat move faster, but does all of go there or is the rig and hull taking more of a beating? That's a debate for another day.
I've got Still Knot Working rigged up with 5/16 Spectra Genoa and Main Haylards and 3/8 Dacron Braid for the Spinn. My theory is that when the spinn collapses and then spans full in a broach or gust I want something to have some give and haylards are cheaper than spinnakers.
On another what is Jamie doing next weekend Aug 28/29? Does he want ot get some experiance on a Mark V, I know ofat least 3 that are looking for crew for the EYC Levels.
Steve
The Annual EYC Open/Levels Regatta is coming up Aug. 28/29.
Registration is online and easy on the LORC web siteat www.lorc.org.
Racing for the 27's is scored level within the marks and on
PHRF for all 27's combined.
It's a great way to close out your summer, great racing, great party, great way to get together with friends.
Hope to see you there.
Brent:
I second what Dave said, you want to stay away from anything dacron for main and Genoa haylards too much stretch. The more hytech low (no) stretch you can get/afford the better off you will be. I also agree with not splicing shakels to haylards, I use the same sort of knot as Dave describes, in addition to the advantages Dave notes, you can easily end for end your hayalard after several years of use thus moving the wear/load points. Also if you use a little forward thinking when you buy your new haylards, do yourself a favour, and buy them a couple of feet longer, then after they wear a bit or get chafed in the haylard locks you can cut off 6 inches or a foot and now you have fresh meat for the jammers to lock onto.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working #75
Copasetic:
On my boat the centre line is for the outhaul, it's 5/16" the reef lines (we only have one riggedas that's all I'd ever want to put in) is rigged through the starboard side and the port is therefore vacant.
Not sure what you are referring to by the pigtail? My reef line is 5/16" as well we don't have any problem with any of the lines running freely in or out. But then I don't have to deal with a topping lift as we have a solid vang and only use the main haylard as a topping lift when the boat is at the dock.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working #75