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I'm replacing a stanchion that got bent in a 'bump' and am at the stage of putting the stanchion and base back in place. Any tips on 'how to' would be appreciated. Assume its probably a pretty simple job - but I've never done it.
Rob.
Rob Nicholson
1979 MkIII <img src="emoticons/icon_lol.gif" border="0" alt="" />
Rob Nicholson
1979 MkIII <img src="emoticons/icon_lol.gif" border="0" alt="" />
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First, a question -- do you have the type of stanchion base that through-bolts down through the toerail and also through the deck via a short inboard-facing leg? (One of these is visible on the left in Guide to the Marks, Mk III/IV Anchor Well.) Or some other type?
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Hi Dave - yup, that's the kind.
Rob Nicholson
1979 MkIII <img src="emoticons/icon_lol.gif" border="0" alt="" />
Rob Nicholson
1979 MkIII <img src="emoticons/icon_lol.gif" border="0" alt="" />
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While awaiting David's opinion, here are some thoughts. I'm doing this with a Mk II 27, older sytle stachnion bases (4 bolts through the deck). My plan:
1. Removed all the bolts. They were stainless with aluminum backing plate, and there was some corrosion from dissimilar metals.
2. Checked the balsa core at every bolt hole. Some were epoxy cored, others not. The balsa is in amazingly good condition.
3. Drilled oversize holes and countersunk the top GRP skin and removed the core.
4. Next I plan to plug the lower skin smaller hole and fill the oversized hole with West epoxy hardneded with 404 thickener.
5. Then redrill the new holes.
6. Dremmel out better access to the inside bolt holes in the headliner - right now they are hard to get at.
7. Seal the bolts in their holes with butyl tape. There is controversy and no end of opinion about how to seal hardware deck bolt holes. I like butyl because it stays sticky for years, and allows some movement. Others may recommend a polysulphide. I have limited experience in two other boats.
8. Reapply the aluminum backing plates, but apply a little Duralac to try to separate the stainless steel and aluminum to prevent corrosion.
9. Snug the bolts down.
I am open to suggestions.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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One of the differences between a Mk II and III is the design of the stanchion bases. The II has cast and plated bronze bases that rely on four machine screws through the deck, inboard of the toe rail. This not only takes significant deck space (one reason that people sometimes switch to the rail-mounted style) but entails holes through the cored portion of the deck. On the 3-legged Mk III/IV style of base, two of the mounting holes pass through toe-rail mounting holes while the third (on the inboard-pointing foot) passes through the core-less outboard portion of the deck and a backing plate. Therefore, while it's possible for one of these bases to be the source of a leak, that leak at least won't wet the core.
One issue with this type of base is that a good strong inboard push on a stanchion will crush the glass under the foot. The standard fix, which you can see on the photo in Guide, is to bed down a square of stainless or aluminum under the foot.
Other than that, replacement of a base is straightforward. The only question is how to bed the holes. To avoid mixing materials when I fixed my bases, I used some of the Tremco butyl gorp that had squeezed out inside between the deck and hull flange; there always seems to be enough somewhere to pack around the bolts on the toerail. For the third leg, I cleaned the area and bedded my stainless plates with 3M 5200 for its adhesive properties.
When you are doing the work, spin the machine screws in to reduce the amount of sealant that gets pushed through the hole (and away from the area it's supposed to be sealing). Once the screws are down, have your assistant (and you will need an assistant unless you have very long arms) hold the machine screw immobile while you snug up the nut from below. If you are using Tremco gorp, you can finish the job there and then. The fastening should be firmly snug but not super-tight, or you will squeeze out all the bedding compoundIf you are using polysulphide or 5200, you have to give it a chance to set, so run the nut snug, but, not more than maybe a half-turn beyond firmly finger-tight. The next day, when the 5200 or other bedding compound has set, come back and again have your assistant hold the machine screw immobile so as not to break the seal, and give the nut another half-turn.
This is a job for which a socket set makes all the difference in the world; trying to do this job with a wrench is absurdly difficult.
Hope this answers all your questions.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2008-11-03 00:27:34)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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I am having trouble picturing how the two toerail bolts go through the toerail, were I to buy the appropriate stanchions and move them out there.
Is the idea to drill new bolt holes through the toerail, exactly as if adding new toerail bolts except they pass through the stanchion base as well as the deck/hull seam?
Are the Mk II and Mk III toerails the same design?
Thanks.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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The outboard mounting screws pass through the stanchion base and down through the toerail, deck and hull flange on the same hole spacing as is already present on the toerail, so no additional holes need to be drilled (just longer screws). Look at the detail from the photo in Guide which shows one of the outboard screws (and clearly shows the inboard reinforcing plate).
I don't know if the toerails are exactly the same.
<img style="border: 0;" src="../../photos/stanchions.jpg" alt="" width="644" height="324" />
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2008-11-04 00:21:07)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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David wrote: "on the same hole spacing as is already present on the toerail, so no additional holes need to be drilled (just longer screws)."
Aha! That never occured to me, since nothing on a boat is supposed to be that easy. I will definitely look into this option more. Thanks.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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C&C were really good at manufacturability that didn't compromise other values (unlike many contemporary production boats, that appear to be built to a target price, rather than a standard). Avoiding drilling extra holes (12 a side on a 27?) pays dividends in the factory and during the boat's life.
According to George Cuthbertson, one the reasons the company came together as it did is because the builder partners not only liked the design ideas, they liked the careful (and fully specified) detailing of Cuthbertson and Cassian's building plans.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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where can i get those? my '76 mk3 must have been before the mod, i've got thru deck that i hate being delicate to.
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Down to crunch time on this issue. I removed the 6 stanchion bases last fall for the 7/8" x 24" stanchions on this Mark II, and need to decide whether to retap and refit those old 4-bolt originals, or buy new ones and move to the toereail. One supplier mentioned here recommends the model with two bolts in the toe rail (need to drill one) and a leg that sits on the deck inboard of the toerail. I don't think that inboard leg has a horizontal bolt toward the toerail (certainly no bolt vertically into the deck, but hard to tell from the photo). Any thoughts on those? I imagine that if I went with them (not cheap) I would also need to glue down a SS plate to spread the load under that leg? I'll call the other supplier too.
No easy decision here in terms of time, money, trouble or design efficiencies.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
Last edited by (2009-01-21 20:40:09)
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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There is no horizontal bolt from the inboard leg to the toerail, but there most certainly is a vertical machine screw from the inboard leg, through the SS plate and through the deck (with appropriate fender washer or backing plate below). This is visible in the photo. The small screw on the outboard side merely holds the stanchion.
You're right that there is a fair bit of work involved, but it will repay itself in additional room on deck and freedom from a common source of leaks into the core and into the accommodation. When filling holes in the deck, bear in mind that polyester will not bond to epoxy. Therefore, hole-filling should be done with polyester putty if you want to replace the gel-coat on deck.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2009-01-22 01:08:52)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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South Shore recommends their Type C stanchion base for a 1974 Mark II. Can't tell from the photo, but on the phone they explain that the third bolt enters horizontally from the outboard side of the base, going through the stanchion and horizontally to or into the vertical part of the toerail. The stanchion has a 1" hole, so they sell sleeves that bush down to accept a 7/8" stanchion.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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In the past I have converted both my old C&C 25 and now my 27 to the Type "C" bases, a conversion which I heartily recommend. However, in converting the bases for my 25, I also had to accomodate 7/8" stanchions in a 1-inch hole. What I found to be a preferable solution, which greatly increased the strength and rigidity of the stanchion, was to sleeve the bottom 4 inches of the stanchion in 1-inch stainless tubing.
In order to do this, you need to get a sufficient length of stainless tubing with a 7/8-inch inner diameter and a 1-inch outer diameter. Cut this tubing into 4-inch lengths and use a file to bevel both ends. Then liberally coat the bottom 4 inches of the stanchion in caulking, like 3M 4200 and insert it into the 4-inch long piece. The caulking is to seal up the gap, so as to minimize the possibility of crevice corrosion. Once the caulking has cured, you can drill the hole for the through-bolt which anchors the stanchion into the base. I recommend setting up a jig, using one of the stanchion bases, so that you can do this job on a drill press. Otherwise, the task of drilling through all of that stainless is going to be tiresome and frustrating. Remember also to use some cutting oil, such as plumbers use when cutting threads on iron pipes. This will help cool the stainless and carry the shards of metal away.
When putting the stanchions into the mounted bases, coat the bottoms of the stanchions with something like Lanocote from Forespar, as this will reduce the electrolysis and make it easier to remove them in the future. The advantage of the stainless sleeve is that it reinforces the stanchion at its weakest point, the point of greatest leverage. It also does not degrade from UV the way the usual nylon bushings do.
Hope that you find these suggestions useful. Good luck!Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
Offline
Excellent again, Marcus, thanks. I shall order the bases today. I use Duralac to separate dissimilar metals on the boat, but it can leave nasty yellow stains, so I'll need to be careful. I've got Lanocote on my list for the next trip to the city. Tef-Gel would be nice to have too, but a guy only needs one of those three, I suppose. I may get a professional shop to drill the six stanchion/sleeve pairs. I have a floor drill and cutting paste, and I've drilled lots of stainless on previous boats, but a nearby shop can do this particular job cleaner, better and faster than I can.
Now I can get on with filliing the 24 deck holes from the old stanchions and get on with the priming/painting.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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The type "C" bases finally arrived. We dryfitted them and found they do not fit tightly enough into our Mark II toerail to line up with the original bolt holes. Because they were too far outboard (about 1/8" - 3/16"), if we drilled new holes we could not fit nuts onto the bolts inside. Also the outboard vertical leg was a hair too long, so the base would not sit flat on the After thinking through all the options for an hour, we decided to file one of the bases in three places. It now fits perfectly. One hole in the base lines up with one toerail bolt, but because the base holes are narrower than the toerail bolts, we'll have to drill the second hole. And we'll also have to drill holes for the horizontal bolt through both the sleeve and stanchion. That horizontal bolt hole is tapped on the inboard leg, which is a very nice feature. The inboard vertical leg ends up too far away from the toerail, but that's easy to shim. I'll take the remaining 5 bases to a machine shop to modify them after the first one,starting with just one to ensure the measurements are correct. We may have to fine tune a couple of the bases later, because the toerail curves a bit more away from 90 degress vertical midships than fore or aft, where we did the model modification.
So, it's not a drop-in solution, but splashdown is still nearly 3 months away, though the tide clock is ticking. I'll do up a Mark II Type C stanchion base modification Black Arts submission with photos for David's consideration after we get this done.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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Lano-Cote is mostly just anhydrous lanolin, the principal ingredient in many ointments, which you can buy at a large pharmacy for much less than Lano-Cote. Apparently it can run out in the sun and make a mess. An alternative is Tef-Gel, which was mentioned, and it apparently is relatively immune to run-out.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Tef-Gel just appeared in the Stright-MacKay catalogue this year. Got a tube last month.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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David wrote, "Well, that's new to me..".
That got me worrying. I visited a friend's Mark III today. He has the toerail bases you mentioned, with the third leg that bolts to the deck. I can see how that model of base gets closer to the toerail than the Type C base, owing to the accomodating slant in the slot in the base. I'll call the supplier again tomorrow to review.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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I sent SSY my photos of the Type C base on our toerail and had good phone dicussions with them. Those are the type they recommend. Marcus, to fit the Type C bases, did you drill two extra vertical holes in the toe rails per base, and drill those holes on an angle so the bolts will accept a nut on the inside?
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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I have noticed in the past that there can be considerable variation in the castings for the stanchion bases. Some shops adhere very closely to the original specs and some apparently just want to do it their own way. I have even experienced variations in bases from a single vendor because the vendor had changed the foundry that did the castings. In your situation, I would not hesitate to "finesse" the new bases a bit in order to make them fit better.
On my C&C 25, I changed over from the original type "A" bases to the type "C". The 25 uses the exact same toerail extrusion as the 27. For that boat, I aligned one of the bolt-holes for the new stanchion base with the hole for an existing toe-rail bolt and then simply ran a longer bolt (technically a machine screw) through the two of them. So, for that installation, the hole in the stanchion base would actually line up with the hole in the toerail (with a very slight amount of finessing). For the second bolt in the new stanchion base, I just drilled right through the hole in the base and into the toerail, keeping the drill bit perpendicular to the base of the toerail. This lined the new bolt up right in line with the existing toerail bolts on the inside of the boat. I do remember that I had to trim back the "lip" on the outboard side of the stanchion bases because they were slightly too long and pressed on the rubrail, preventing the bases from sitting tight against the bottom surface of the toerail.
On Carriden, I changed most of the stanchion bases from the type "B" (with the inside leg) to the type "C". Since the type "B" bases already had holes through the toerail extrusion, I simply bolted through the already existing holes. However, the vendor of the bases advertised that they would be an exact fit to the existing holes and I found that this was not really true. I had to do a certain amount of reaming of the holes in the stanchion bases to get them to properly align with the existing holes in the toerail. However, once I had finessed the holes in the bases, it was a simple matter to bolt them down. If you are using butyl caulking under the bases (that gummy grey stuff), then you need to make sure that it is warm enough outside that the caulking will indeed squeeze down and seal. I tried putting some down on a cold, dark night and ultimately they had to be re-bedded because the caulking had been too stiff to actually create a seal.
Here's an interesting observation: there was much easier access to the nuts of the toerail bolts, under the deck, on my 25 than there is on my 27. For some reason, the nuts on the 27 seem to be much closer to the inside of the hull, to the extent that I cannot get a socket wrench on many of them. Are yours also that tight to the side of the boat?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Last edited by (2009-03-10 08:57:21)
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
Offline
Marcus, thanks for the detail. I chatted tonight with my colleague who is working on this with me, and decided to get the machinist to make the modifications. They'll be solid and secure.
I can't put a socket on the deck seam nuts, but it's easy to slide on a box wrench, although there are a pile of nuts to do that way, of course.
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"New" 1974 C&C 27 Mk II undergoing refit
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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Well, moving the stanchion bases to the toerail and replacing the lifelines was not a trivial job. Almost done, but it definitely has been one of the fiddliest and most prolonged tasks in the refit. I may do up a Black Arts submission next winter for David to consider.
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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1974 Mark II C&C 27
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