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First, I just want to say that, being a very new owner of a very old boat (and one which had been in water, unused, for five years) I have all sorts of questions. Not sure how to put this but I don't want to abuse the privilege of being a member here. So, if I ask too many questions please, someone, let me know. Really.
That said, right before I bought the boat all the handrails had been taken off to refinish the teak, then replaced. They now leak. Might have leaked before but I've got to redo them, regardless. I've read the back threads here on handrails. It seems a relatively simple procedure but was wondering if there were tricks (black art) to assure dry fit and, particularly, what sort of bedding/caulking material people prefer, for this and other applications-- favorite brands, for example.
Was also wondering-- having read enough about the balsa core issue with the decks both on this site and elsewhere to be concerned about it-- how long does a leak need to go on before balsa rot occurs? If that sort of thing can even be known. Also, if there's been a leak should the area be left open to air out rather than trapping water in the balsa?
Thanks
Steve
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We've never had an issue of "abuse" yet, so I'm not sure how we'd define it, except to say that, like art, I know it when I see it. In addition,
1) all your questions are reasonable, to the point and, most importantly, not stupid (anyone who asks for suggestions on installing a schooner rig on a 27 or how to turn it into a trimaran will get short shrift).
2) we appreciate the support you provide by joining the Association, instead of merely using the Forum.
Now, to the point of your questions -
If by "right before" you mean sometime this year, your balsa is certainly alright. For years, people thought that balsa core wouldn't rot meaningfully even if water entered, because the core is oriented with the grain bridging the laminate from the outer to inner skin. We now know that voids and age-related deterioration of the bond between the laminating resin and the balsa allow water to migrate then dive down through the end-grain to initiate rot. All this takes time, so if the handrail area is only newly wet, you have little to worry about.
However, if water has entered, you have to get it out. If you had the boat surveyed before purchase, the surveyor should have run a moisture meter over the deck. If he didn't mention it in his report, ring him up and ask. If you didn't get a survey, try to lure someone with a moisture meter on board to check the deck for you. Failing that, take off the handrails and dig out some of the balsa through each hole. That might tell you something. If the wood is damp, I'd put duct tape over the outside holes and let the area dry for a week for a little dampness, 2 weeks for signficant dampness, then get that moisture meter back on board.
When the area is dry, treat the area with epoxy (see the description in Black Arts under Genoa Tracks).
We used 3M 5200 to re-bed our handrails in '99 and they were dry last fall when the deck was checked; some people don't like 5200 because it's an adhesive as well as a bedding compound, but I think this is an appropriate use for it. Many people really like SikaFlex products; they are said to be as effective as 3M's and less expensive.
We dry-fit (no 5200) the handrails then taped the deck closely around the mounting areas. We then removed and re-mounted the rails for real, screwing them snugly but not aggressively (don't want to squeeze all the 5200 out). Next day, we gave each screw a half-turn, slit away the 5200 that had squeezed out onto the tape and we were finished.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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David
Thanks for the guide. Will follow. I'd previously read the Genoa Track portions of Black Art and decided to hold off on that for now-- though I've never had a boat without genny tracks and I'll see how I get used to using snatch blocks on the toe rails. Perhaps working with the balsa on the rails will encourage me to try the tracks.
By mentioning the genoa track articles did you mean that when you put the handrails on "for real" you used the drill-fill-drill method? If so, did you enlarge the present screw holes for the rails as mentioned for attaching tracks?
Also, (a) is there a silicon based product that will work adequately here and (b) what do you use for bedding other deck mounted fittings-- stanchions, anchor grips? Chainplates?
I'll be looking for someone in the yard who has a moisture meter though I was interested to read this article regarding their reliability: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/moisture_meters.htm
Thanks again.
Also thanks for alleviating my worries about overuse of the forum. Fortunately, I hadn't yet thought of the schooner rig option and had already worked out how to retrofit the outriggers onto the deck.
Steve
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You should drill-fill-drill the handrail mounting holes, then dry-fit the whole works. When you're satisfied with fit, etc., do it for real with chosen bedding gorp. For compatibility with your handrails, you want to hold the existing hole positions as closely as possible when doing the drill-fill-drill routine. You could enlarge the upper holes if you wanted, because it would make balsa extraction easier, but you'd want to do something to ensure that you could replicate the present hole position as closely as possible. You don't have to be perfect - remember that the final holes have to be slightly oversize so there's room for bedding gorp in the hole.
I'm the wrong person to ask about silicon. Silicon and I don't like each other. I use 3M 5400 and 4300. Regardless of what you use, seal the circumference of the hole with epoxy. I skipped this the first time I bedded my chainplates. Fortunately, one of them sprang an obvious leak. I repairing that, I found that the balsa was quite wet, so I epoxied the lot.
This of course raised the issue of how you prevent epoxy from running out the bottom of a cavity that's already open at the bottom. The best stuff I've found is the red plastic tape used for sealing vapour barriers. Everything else comes off. For smaller holes, you can stuff a piece of coffee cup foam in the hole.
Good surveyors have known about the uncertainty of moisture meters forever and a day (never let one get started on this subject if you have anything else to do that day). That's one of the reasons the hammer is still their favourite tool. Good core sounds different from bad core.
Outriggers, eh? Listen - we've got some neat plans for hydofoils you might want to incorporate, too. But you've got to work on them where it's safe - a barn or better yet a bunker in Utah, or the United Nations will put rays in your brain and steal all your ideas. Better not write to the Forum any more, or they'll get your coordinates; we'll be in touch when we're sure you're not being watched.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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when you say you sealed the circumference with epoxy, do you mean that the epoxy is put around the holes on the surface of the deck or inside the hole itself?
Steve
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>That should clarify the use of the term<
Thanks. Got the drill-fill-drill concept. Thought you were referring to still another step.
Steve
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