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Last Wednesday night my genny 1 halyard shackle let go the sail while we were tightening things up in 18 knots of wind. The shackle (a crappy victory unit) opened and closed with the sound of a 50 cal gun going off and is thankfully permanently deformed. Now I'll replace the shackles with Wichard or the like but doing so will require replacement of the halyards as the lines are too old to splice. What material is the best bang for the buck for halyards these days. Dyneema, spectra, sta-set, seaweed, goat hair.....
Brent Driedger
S/V Wild Rover
C&C 27 MkV #15
Brent Driedger
S/V Wild Rover
C&C 27 MkV #15
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Warpspeed is on sale at South Shore, 35% off. Colours are limited by now, but so what? With Warpspeed, you can go one size down from Dacron, if that's what you're presently using.
http://www.southshoreyachts.com/specials.html
Rather than splicing it, I used a "halyard knot" (which seems to be a new name for a buntline hitch). The short tail is stitched down and covered for chafe protection with a self-adhering tape called RubbaWeld. The buntline hitch uses less line than a splice and doesn't make the line thicker as it passes over the sheave.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2010-07-30 02:41:39)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Brent:
I second what Dave said, you want to stay away from anything dacron for main and Genoa haylards too much stretch. The more hytech low (no) stretch you can get/afford the better off you will be. I also agree with not splicing shakels to haylards, I use the same sort of knot as Dave describes, in addition to the advantages Dave notes, you can easily end for end your hayalard after several years of use thus moving the wear/load points. Also if you use a little forward thinking when you buy your new haylards, do yourself a favour, and buy them a couple of feet longer, then after they wear a bit or get chafed in the haylard locks you can cut off 6 inches or a foot and now you have fresh meat for the jammers to lock onto.
Steve Reid
Still Knot Working #75
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That sounds good. If anyone has detailed instructions for the "halyard knot" I'd love to hear it.
Brent Driedger
S/V Wild Rover
C&C 27 MkV #15
Brent Driedger
S/V Wild Rover
C&C 27 MkV #15
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How to tie a buntline hitch:
http://www.netknots.com/html/buntline_hitch.html
Note it's a clove hitch tied around the standing part. Cool!
Regards,
Tony Jeske
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It's a bit more than a clove hitch on the standing part, because the clove hitch is tied back toward the object to which the line is hitched. This has the effect of locking the knot more securely with increasing tension on the standing part. This would have made it a better performer than a clove hitch when the load is intermittent, when a clove hitch should be finshed with a whipping or a couple of overhand knots.
There are also some nice illustrations at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buntline_hitch
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Anyone replaced the wire to rope halyards?
Allan
Cygnus
C&C 27 Hull 518
Allan
Cygnus
C&C 27 Hull 518
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Towser's genoa halyards were rope/wire and replaced initially with pre-stretched Dacron, then with Spectra when the price came out of the stratosphere. Replacement with Dacron was made to eliminate the irritation of wire whipping around the foredeck; replacement with Spectra was done to reduce the line size and to give the genoa a more stable set in puffy conditions. I was prepared to see chafe from the old rope/wire sheaves so I wrapped the shackle knot with RubbaWeld (a self-amalgamating rubber tape) and things have been fine for three years.
Although it's a very little bit heavier, we still have a rope/wire halyard on the main. The wire is as stretch-free as Spectra and there's no issue about it whipping around since the main is up all the time when sailing. Moreover, I remain to be convinced of the value of shaving a few ounces off the weight of an aluminum tree-trunk like ours.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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An important thing to remember is that regardless of which fibre you choose, changing to all-rope halyards preferably also should involve new masthead sheaves. The original aluminum sheaves have a groove-within-a-groove profile designed to handle wire and rope and could present a wear problem for all-rope halyards. I replaced my three sheaves this year with custom-made (Delrin with brass inserts) units from the Sheave Factory (http://www.zephyrwerks.com), a small shop north of Seattle. They carry a regular small display ad in Good Old Boat. Communication was excellent and the cost was about $105, cheap for peace of mind not to mention halyard life.
Ken Pole, Ottawa
1975 Mark III Santiva
Ken Pole, Ottawa
1975 Mark III Santiva
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I have one wire/Dacron and one plain Dacron genoa halyard. The wire one is miserable to handle and little splice snags draw blood....
A MkV is supposed to have 7/16 halyards, but if I were to go to Spectra would 3/8 do the trick? The breaking strain on Spectra is amazing if I read the specifications correctly. 14,000 lbs for 7/16 in one particular layup. Does the change to a smaller rope involve a change of the sheaves as well?
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
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I'd ditch the wire if it has meathooks on it. Misery. Whether you replace it with Spectra or wire/Dacron is up to you. Wire is low-stretch and I don't think the weight is a big deal for the main because only half of the material is up when you're sailing (a lot of the weight is in that Dacron tail, but it's in a bag in the companion, right?). Spectra is nice, but less necessary in this location. For the genoa and chute halyards, most of the length of which may be aloft when sailing, the weight is worth thinking about.
7/16" halyards? Are you running a crane service on the side that you're not telling us about? Towser's genoa and chute set on 5/16" Spectra so I think you could be a bit more aggressive in down-sizing. The real limitation, I found, is the minimum size that your self-tailing winches will grip. 5/16" is right on the edge for mine, so I need four to five wraps on the drum to get any holding power when the breeze is up.
The thicker the rope, the greater must be the sheave diameter to avoid internal chafe in the line, so going down in size, no, I don't think there's any need to change the sheaves. Ken Pole did and likes the result, but I'm too lazy to drill out those rivets and pull the casting. As mentioned, my halyards seem none the worse for wear for running over the wire/rope sheaves.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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After digging deeper into my halyard situation I find some oddities. My original Owner's Manual, in table 3, which lists size, length and material for all "Running Rigging", says that genoa halyards should be 7/16 braided Dacron, and 86 feet long. The spin and main halyards should be 3/8 braided Dacron, 88 feet and 86 feet respectively. After yesterday's rushing around the buoys I checked the facts on SMOKE. The genoa halyard with meathook-wire is spliced to 7/16 braided ????. It is headed for the bin. The other genoa halyard and the main halyard are both 3/8 braided Dacron. They s t r e t c h
.......The main had a taught luff when we started racing, and my new clutches hold the line with a vice-like grip. However, as we sailed home that luff was 'soft', and to get it back to pre-race tension I took in about 2 inches, (it's an age thing...5cm if you prefer). Same thing with the genoa.
Is this normal for mature lines in good condition, and would Spectra eliminate that stretch?
Finally, how critical is the weight of the lines aloft in our less-than sylph-like boats? The 'tree-trunk' mast, the many variations in total crew weight, fuel/holding/water tank fullness, contents of the ice box, tools......you know...stuff. Perhaps the stretch is more critical than the few extra pounds (Kgs)half way up the mast?
Thoughts?
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
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Alan
I think that you will find that haylard stretch = poor sail shape, ask any sail maker and I think they will agree, so in answer to your question some extra weight aloft to reduce stretch is not an issue.
Having said that you will likely find that you can go down a size or even 2 in diameter with the high tech lines that are out there. The only problem will be what is the min. size that your new jammers will hold without slipping cause slipping and stretch are both not good.
When the Mark V's were built they all had dacron sails and yacht draid for haylayrds, dacron stretches so does dacron braid. Now we have mylar/kevlar string sails that don't strech so we need line that doesn't stretch. I wonder where the forces go now? Certainly some of the force goes into making the boat move faster, but does all of go there or is the rig and hull taking more of a beating? That's a debate for another day.
I've got Still Knot Working rigged up with 5/16 Spectra Genoa and Main Haylards and 3/8 Dacron Braid for the Spinn. My theory is that when the spinn collapses and then spans full in a broach or gust I want something to have some give and haylards are cheaper than spinnakers.
On another what is Jamie doing next weekend Aug 28/29? Does he want ot get some experiance on a Mark V, I know ofat least 3 that are looking for crew for the EYC Levels.
Steve
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Switching to Spectra or similar halyards is a win-win, because you reduce stretch in the lines (the big bonus with contemporary sails as Steve notes), plus you reduce weight aloft, through downsizing and because Spectra seems to be slightly lighter than Dacron, diameter for diameter.
The issue with weight aloft is simply leverage - the farther a weight is from the boat's various centres (flotation, gravity, effort, etc.) the greater will be its effect when the boat rolls or pitches. So you don't let people stand in the stern, you don't fill your anchor locker with chain and you don't put a lot of weight up the mast. Towser's PO had installed a masthead light that weighed about the same as the small anchor; that didn't last long, even for cruising. Addressing the overweight halyards took a little longer.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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There is a reason why the forum prompts you to review your message before sending.
My Bad, I typed 5/16 and should have typed 7/16 for the Genoa Haylards on Still Knot Working.
Steve
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Thanks Steve, so Still Knot Working has the halyard sizes which are indicated in the MkV Owner's Manual. Perhaps they differ from earlier Marks as David fears that we are about to enter the cranes business with our 7/16 genoa halyards. What do the Mk 1 to IV manuals say on this matter?
Your idea that bad sail shape results in halyard stretch is interesting. Do you mean bad shape caused by poor sheet or vang trim, or bad shape due to poor cut by the sail maker? Whichever it may be, I thought that the vast majority of the stress on the mainsail in a wind is transferred to (a)the mast groove ( track ) and thence to the standing rigging and mast step), and (b)to the boom, and thence to the main sheeting system??? How much is left to go to the main halyard with its all-virtical stesses? I realise that I am arguing against my initial question about last night's 2 inch main halyard stretch, but it is entirely possible that all my halyards are less than wonderful, and should be the tie-downs for my winter cover. Elderly boats with many PO's are full of surprises.....
Jamie is in Vancouver this week, and Calgary next week, but I'll ask him about the crewing needs for the EYC Levels.
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
Last edited by (2010-08-20 12:20:54)
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
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I just checked my manual for the Mk III / Mk IV 27. The specifications page for running rigging is dated June 30th, 1976 and specifies 3/8-inch yacht braid for all halyards. In fact, everything is 3/8-inch with just a few exceptions:
Genoa Sheets: 1/2-inch
Cunningham: 1/4-inch
Outhaul, Topping Lift: 1/8-inch
All of these lines have been designated as "YB" (Yacht Braid) in the manual, but there are also wire specifications for the Main Halyard, Genoa Halyard and Topping Lift.
Interestingly, my original Spinnaker Halyard was 7/16-inch, but I relegated it to being a backup halyard because it binds too much going through all of the sheaves. A 3/8-inch Dacron double-braid is perfectly acceptable for the spinnaker halyard, as an inch or two of stretch at the the masthead makes no perceptible difference to performance and the benefits of a small amount of stretch under shock-loading have already been mentioned.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
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Alan:
Your not thinking of your main the same way you would be thinking about your Genoa. With any sail you have 3 basic sail controls. Any sail can undergo changes to it's shape. In light air you want a powerful shape (lost of camber/draft) at around 30/40% aft of the luff. As the wind strength increases you need to alter that shape, moving the draft/camber forward to 25/30%. As the wind continues to increase you want to achieve a flater(faster shape). You move the draft in the sail by tensioning the luff (haylard). your other sail controls are the sheet & the lead position. With a Genoa you tension the sheet to trim the sail to the relative angle of attack to the wind, we do that on the Main with the sheet as well. With the Genoa we move the lead fore and aft, or inboard or out board depending on how much twist we want in the sail. For the main we use the traveler and the outhaul.
So does line stretch affect the sail shape. You bet it does. When a puff/gust hits the sail we want the shape to stay as we set it. We want to be able to pull the sheet in not have it go out. not have the haylard get longer.
Steve
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Thanks Steve for the guidance. I have not been maintaining genoa halyard tension during a race, and that accounts for the wrinkles as we head home. I will watch this next time. For the main halyard we hoist the sail and get the luff the way I want it, no tension crease as it's too tight, and no wrinkles ( at least as we start) as it's too loose. Then during the race I use the cunningham to keep the luff of the main the way I want it. That is a habit from Etchells, which, as you know, have no tension on the main halyard once the sail is up. They have that tricky catch at the top of the mast which snares a fitting on the halyard, and your only ability to adjust the main's luff is with the cunningham.
I'm sure there is a slight difference between keeping the main at the top of the mast by re-tensioning the halyard that 2 inch stretch, compared to pulling down on the cunningham cringle which is only a few inches above the tack cringle, but the latter is much easier I think?
I've just spoken to Jamie who is high in the Rockies and heading to Revelstoke for the night, driving a SUV with trailer in tow. There is snow a couple of hundred feet above them.... He won't be back here until next Sunday evening so says he's sorry and sad that he cannot join you or others for next weekend's racing.
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
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Alan:
Cunningham works, as you describes to tension the luff ofthe Main, we use it as a fine adjustment to flatten the sail and the nease it depending on changes in wind strength during a race. some times it's easier to get to the Cunningham (which is on the port side cabin top) or the Main Haylard (which is on the Stbd. side Cabin Top).
The cunningham is sometimes easier to use to add tension because it is essentially a 2:1 purchase.
Steve
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