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The plastic cap and bit of wood are purely cosmetic. They were pulled out of my rudder post when I adopted Kat's Paw's solution for a sloppy rudder, and had a machinist weld a piece of tubing in place of the elongated hole that had developed over the years.
Kat's Paw and Towser are both acquiring new Autohelm/Raymarine tiller pilots this spring to replace fried or semi-fried predecessors (Kat's Paw's owner claims her old one is fried, but we all know she just wants a new one that matches her shoes). Photos may happen in Black Arts if there's any interest.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Okay - you got me, Chris. I googled it again (I didn't find anything for some reason, perhaps because I was being too specific) and came up with a raft of hits, including Wikipedia and those nice folks who make nuclear weapons in Los Alamos (it's nice to know they have hobbies).
Couldn't find the masthead light, either, but the multicolour technology sounds trial-production new, so I'll bet it costs a bomb.
BTW - I believe everything I read on the Internet. Some of it may seem a little whacko, but short of the out-and-out flying saucer stuff, most of it is at least as plausible as any pronouncement from the present government.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
> With a little help, I could probably figure out how to do much of the work you describe.
There's a book called "Spurr's Boatbook / Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat" that contains a chapter on repowering, with photos of Dan Spurr working on his own boat. It's under $15 on Amazon. That would probably put to rest most of your concerns about repowering.
As to the rest, it occurs to me that one of the greatest concerns for amateurs like us is the thought that the new engine "won't fit" in some way. Also, that there might be serious measuring mistakes that would only become apparent when a heavy, unwieldy engine was heaved into place.
Therefore, I think that the sensible way to proceed would be to make a mockup of the new engine out of 2" x 2" wood. The overall dimensions could be roughly accurate, but the placement of a 7/8" dowel to represent the drive shaft and engine mounts would be exact. Then you take the old engine out and use the mockup do all the measuring, shifting around and double-checking that you need to feel comfortable. This could be done by one person, since the weights involved are negligible, so you could take all the time you need, without a concern for someone else's time.
One other item I forgot along with the tank, a Drivesaver coupling (the red item visible here). This $300 item was necessary to move the engine a couple of inches forward, but could have been avoided if the difference in engine lengths had been appreciated before the new shaft was ordered. It's a nice-to-have item that reduces vibration, so I don't mind.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Pyacht.com sells made-to-order tillers at a very reasonable price.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
This sounds rather improbable. This site - http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_lighting_leds.html - says that LED's simply will not pass power if the polarity is reversed (makes sense - diodes are basically one-way gates), and a search for "LED polarity" leads only to discussions about ways to protect LED circuits from high levels of reverse-polarity power.
Also turned up a marine site that says that retro-fitting LED's into older fixtures voids the fixture's approved status. This makes sense because LED "bulbs" are clusters of the little beasties, whereas COLREGS style lights are designed for a single filament, so as to give a very precise cut-off between one sector and another. I can't imagine any enforcement type ever checking, but I suppose if you get run over by a freighter, they can say it's all your fault.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I think it's a reasonable concern; you don't want the wire's weight dependent on the electrical connection. I put heat-shrink tubing on the last foot or so of my masthead harness then secured that where it exited the top of the casting with a nylon wire-tie. There is no strain at all on the electrical connections.
LED "bulbs" are a nice option, but the ones I saw last season cost more than the fitting they were designed for. Unless you do a lot of anchoring out, I'd fit a conventional bulb until the prices come down, as they surely will (and that may already have happened, so I'd check).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Something I forgot in that list - a new tank if you don't have one. The original steel tanks are way past their best-by dates and so are some aluminum ones. Assoc. member Ralph Ainslie pulled his tank and found he could poke his finger through the bottom. Three or four years ago, a 27 owner found that her tank had let go and she had 15 gallons of gas sloshing around in her bilge. If you have an aluminum tank, you should lever it up and inspect the underside for corrosion before you start the engine replacement process, because the easiest time to replace it is when the engine is out.
Replacement plastic tanks are about $100 - $200.
There will be much more on tanks on the site in the next month or so thanks to information from member Scott Schoeler and RCYC head mechanic George Garland, who together have provided a lot of info on the corrosion of steel and aluminum tanks (a problem that biofuels will make much worse).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
There is nothing in an engine change that anyone who is reasonably competent with tools cannot do, and while it might cost several thousand of a mechanic's time to do the work, it doesn't need to be done by a mechanic. It can be done by you and a friend.
The Yanmars in that series are virtually a drop-in replacement. You don't touch the glass. The steel angles on top of the f'glass beds need to be changed, but anyone who can hold a hacksaw and a drill can do that. Steel: $30-$40
New prop: $100 to $1000+.
New shaft: $500.
New cutless bearing $95.
Shaft seal $200 (nice but not essential).
Muffler (Vetus): $200.
Hose: $200 (a guess - might be $300).
Clean tank: need brass utility pump (non-sparking), one roll paper towel, 36" wooden dowel: $30 (if you have to buy the pump)
New filter (Racor): $100.
Miscellaneous hose clamps: $40
The big challenge is finding a better deal on the engine, either the one I used or its predecessor, the 2GM.
Good luck.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
$12,000 strikes me as high. We put a 2YM15 Yanmar in our boat for about $8000 including new exhaust system, new prop blades and new shaft. If you're willing to do a lot of the work yourself, it could be a bit lower (I did a little bit and the stuff I didn't do seemed straightforward). A diesel would give you more of the power you need in passes.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
You can remove an A4 without removing the cabinetry. You can probably do a valve job on it by working through the exhaust pipe. But I wouldn't try either. If you remove the wood cross-piece that supports the front of the engine cover, you have much more room to work. Also, you can lift the thing straight out with a crane.
To remove the cross-piece, you will need a #1 or #2 Robertson head screwdriver; a variation of this is apparently sold by Home Despot as a "square drive" screwdriver. There are three or four screws a side and then it just lifts out.
The engine is gearcase-heavy and will bind on the mounting bolts if you just try to lift it with the lifting eye. Do this: Drop a strop three or four feet from the lifting hook to the hoisting eye on top of the block. Then, from the same hook, drop a block and tackle and make it fast at the rear of the gearcase; the block and tackle should make a slight dog-leg as it passes under the cockpit. With everything disconnected on the engine, tighten the block and tackle until the aft end of the engine rises. It's okay if it binds a little bit on the mounting bolts, but not too much. Raise the hook a bit until the front end of the engine binds a bit. Repeat until the engine is off the mounts and hanging free. Remove.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I had a fresh-water cooling system on my boat similar to the Moyer units. The front panel of the engine space had been routed away to paper thinness in the way of the belt. In one area, all the wood had been cut away for the pulley on the pump itself. A wooden "blister" covered this cut-away.
Your other option is the Indigo Electronics cooling kit. It uses a pump that mounts by the alternator and uses the alternator belt path. Access would be foul, but it does mean you're not adding anything to the front (and it means you get to keep your manual starting handle).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Well, you are a collector of C&C's aren't you? I'm assuming that a Harpoon 6.2 is the Whaler that C&C designed.
The simplest way to get a manual is to join the 27 Association. You will then, on request, be given a download link to a searchable pdf of the manual (other versions out there aren't searchable) that you can print. This manual comes from a later boat, but most of the material covered is little changed. Of course, by joining, you are also supporting the site.
If you're mad keen for paperwork, South Shore Yachts advertised a spring sale on boats' build files from the factory. See their info in Links & Contacts - remember to call, not e-mail them.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
They are probably advising you to look at the cutless bearing (sometimes spelled 'cutlass', but manufacturers use the first spelling), the rubber dohickey in the p-bracket. They do wear out and this is the time to replace it.
A couple of gotchas in engine swapping -- ask the supplier if your Yanmar's exhaust hose is large enough for the Beta. Also ask about the prop -- if the power curves don't match, you may have to replace it.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
T-connections on a bilge pump line are not a great idea as you need to put a non-return valve on the electric pump's line, or water will flow from the manual pump back down to the electric pump. However, a non-return valve does restrict flow somewhat. I'm sure that other Mk V owners could advise you as to where to put a dedicated through-hull for the electric.
That said, I'm not a fan of electric pumps, as they tend to mask problems with water getting in from above or below. Better to find the sources of water and eliminate them, until you get to the point I've got my boat to (mostly thanks to the shaft seal, which you say you're getting), where I have to add water to the bilge periodically, to flush the spiders out.
You'll find a lot from me on re-powering in the Forum but most of it concerns the transformation from gas to diesel in a Mk IV. Also see the relevant bits in Black Arts on Ralph Ainsley's boat -- but again, gas to diesel in a Mk I. We don't have anything on re-powering a Mk V. Please take notes and pictures -- it might be a worthwhile addition to the site.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Do you have children you could possibly sell or lease for research purposes? Perhaps indenture them to some high-paying but unsavoury occupation? That could provide an income and a subject for your thesis (success of rehabilitation strategies, for instance). Have to keep your priorities straight!
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
PS -- You think I'm joking about the square rig? Look at today's Sailing Anarchy under Yabba Dabba Doo <http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php> to see what lunacy is perpetuated on innocent, reasonably designed boats. The Fred Flintstone keel!
Most of the restauranteurs I know downtown hate getting articles written about them. Seems counter-intuitive until you see the effect. For two weeks the joint is full of blowhards from the 'burbs in powder blue leisure suits who want drinks with little umbrellas on them. They scare away the regulars for a month and the net result is a loss of business.
What's the comparable in boats? 27's will get snapped up by romantic boneheads who've worn out three copies of the DVD of "Master & Commander" and who think a 27 would be a great boat once they've converted it to a square rig!
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
One of our earlier threads lists a discussion on sail.net (the thread is a mess because everyone, it seems, quotes every preceding message in its entirety!) that notes a website devoted to 4x4's with a clear informative article on tightening bolts, accompanied by a torque calculator for the sizes of bolt we're interested in. It works for grade 5 and 8 bolts (I tried grade 5 because the bolts are old and thus might be assumed to have lost some strength to fatigue, and the 1/2" came in close to the values published in our manuals).
One thing that has not been mentioned is the necessity of ensuring that you are torquing down on good threads. This may call for the addition of a washer or two on top of those already there.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Okay - forget the links. Just search for those two items, "keel bolts" and "torque for keel bolts on a Mk 111 ???". If that doesn't work, I found those two by searching "torque" and "bolt" (didn't look any farther, because those are the main threads I remember on the topic).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
You need to torque the nuts on your keel bolts. Find the proper tool (possibly from a rental shop, or just buy a simple torque wrench, an extension and the sockets you need, and reef the nuts up to the values you find in these threads. Keel bolts: <http://www.cc27association.com/f3/toast/toast.asp?sub=show&action=posts&fid=2&tid=31> and
Torque for keel bolts on a Mk III (it's the bolt size that's important, not the Mark): <http://www.cc27association.com/f3/toast/toast.asp?sub=show&action=posts&fid=2&tid=1010>
This should take care of the leaks and will be far less work than changing the seal (lotsa work).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Towser has Harken 32 2-speed self-tailers with aluminum drums as primaries. With an 8-inch handle, you have to work a bit at the very top end of the range and they are expensive, but everyone is fairly happy with them. The only downside to them is that you have to remove the base from the deck to do a complete service.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I'm guessing, but I think that the issue is economics -- stainless steel used to be considered much more difficult to work than it now is and was consequently much more expensive in relation to other metals. If you have a very early boat, that could be the reason for bronze. On the other hand, it could be a replacement.
I've been told that metals are now of such consistent quality that dissimilarity between prop and shaft is simply not an issue if you maintain your zinc. As the harder of the two metals, stainless is less prone to erosion at the cutless bearing and shaft log.
The .pdf of the manual is a complete manual from a Mark IV (in engineering fashion, each page is dated, and some bear '76 dates). The manual is available to members of the C&C 27 Association. If you are not currently a member, join now and we'll treat it as a 2008 membership.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
PS I discussed this with the club's senior mechanic, who said that working from specs on a boat as old as ours are is a bad idea because you seldom know what a previous owner has done. Also, whenever possible, the machinist should have access to the prop when doing a shaft, so he can mate the two precisely (his background includes raceboats and jet engines, so he's very particular about correct fit and good balance).
My shaft was replaced two years ago, but with one made by a marine machine shop, so I can't give you data. They simply copied the keyway, taper and thread of the original, which was provided to them. As with every C&C I've ever seen, the shaft was stainless steel (a proprietary type called Aquamet).
The owner's manual provided as a pdf to Association members includes a drawing of the shaft, but it has no dimensions; the taper is given only as 'standard'.
Why do you not want to use stainless steel?
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Since heads and head problems seem to be a recurring source of problems (and obviously not just aboard 27's), I'm passing on two threads I came across on Sailing Anarchy.
Sh**ty Problem, How to remove sewage stench from locker
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63938
Head & Holding Tank Anarchy, now replacing most parts - the damn tank is busted!
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51449
One post reveals a success with a custom-made tank from Triple M Plastics, at a price better than that charged for a stock tank.
Did you know you can remove encrusted crud from a holding tank by dumping in a couple of bags of ice cubes, then going sailing on a rough day? I didn't.
The language on Sailing Anarchy is, to say the least, unregulated (well, what did you expect on a site that calls itself, 'Sailing Anarchy'?). If you are sensitive to profanity, politically incorrect terminology related to body parts and biological functions, you will not enjoy SA. There are also a lot of deeply stupid threads and posts. But there's also a lot of fun and info to be had – a great way to fritter away a Sunday afternoon when the freezing rain is beginning to glaze everything in sight.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
There is also a lot of information on props in Black Arts. I assume from your need to ask the question that you have a folding prop and you can't see the attaching nut. This means you probably have a Martec or Michigan folder. On these props, you must remove the blades (pull the split pins, then slide out the s/s blade pivot pins). Under the blades and buried within the body of the prop is a retaining nut with a square hole that fits a 3/8" drive from a socket set. Remove that nut, then use a prop puller to finish the job.
Most shafts are 7/8" but there are some 1" out there. The taper is probably SAE, but you should check. These boats are old enough that a previous owner may have slipped something different in there.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV