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I can't tell you about the YSB8 or 12 because I don't have one. My boat originally had an Atomic 4 (they remained available for those who wanted a smooth-running engine), which I recently replaced with a Yanmar 2YM15.
I've never heard any negatives with regard to Yanmars and reliability.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I put a Shaft Seal on Towser last spring and concur with Phil Austin's points. My shaft was scored and not perfectly straight, adding a C$500 surprise to the job (presumably the boat had been picked up with the sling under the shaft at some point, a fairly common occurence in my experience). I had assumed that I would replace the cutless bearing (C$90), as it's silly to go to all the work of pulling a shaft without doing that at the same time.
Two issues made the job less than straightforward. As mentioned, separating the shaft from the coupling is impossible by normal means (brute force, etc.). I got them apart by putting a smaller-than-shaft-size socket between the two halves of the coupling, bearing on the end of the shaft, then tightening the coupling bolts. As the two halves of the coupling are squeezed together, the socket forces the shaft out of the coupling.
Putting the Shaft Seal/shaft/coupling assembly together inside of the shaft was difficult because once the Shaft Seal was in place, there wasn't enough room between the shaft and the tail of the engine to slip the coupling over the shaft key and shaft. The rubber bellows therefore had to be compressed as much as possible to give room. If there had been a second person there to pull on the shaft, it would have been easy, but there wasn't. Accordingly, I assembled the Shaft Seal on the shaft then went under the boat and heaved on the shaft to compress the bellows as much as possible. I held the shaft in position by clamping the zinc on it, outside the p-bracket. Back inside the boat, I found that this gave me just enough room to get the key and coupling on the shaft.
Once that was done, it was easy to manouevre the Shaft Seal into its proper position on the log and on the shaft. This was eased by the advice I'd been given by a club mechanic, who told me to dry-fit all the components and mark their correct position on the shaft with a fine-tip marker. This saved a lot of fiddling.
The boat has been dry as a bone since.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Our Mk IV has the standard full-height pulpit.
8HP sounds a bit on the fair-weather side to me, too. Are you sure that it's a YSB8 and not a YSB12 - these things all look alike and it could just be a mistaken assumption.
The major knock against these engines is not their power but the vibration, so if you could use the deficiency of the 8HP engine as a negotiating point to bring the price down, it might be worth swapping it out for a new smoother-running diesel.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
As Jim Wente noted: http://www.philsfoils.com/Designs/CC.html - a Mk V plan, ready to roll.
He has also drawn a CAD file for a Mk III rudder.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I can't help you right away, but I gather your boat's already on the old cradle anyway. If you can wait a week, I can get you photos and measurements of my Marine Cradle Shop cradle (which is the standard around Toronto). Once you've got the basic dimensions, your welder can just heavy up the steel a bit to make transportation safe.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I don't think that Clare is referring to a cradle that has rotted because it has been immersed (it would be absurdly difficult to get a boat into a shipping cradle that's on a railway and position it properly), but one that has simply rotted through exposure to rain and snow over decades of use.
My concern in your case would be for the fore and aft seatings that you say are original. It's been a long time since I've seen an original C&C shipping cradle but I remember those bunks as half-inch or three-quarter-inch ply. With the end-grain upward and covered by carpet, they're great candidates for water retention, water incursion and rot. At the very very least, I'd replace those and my preference would be to replace the entire cradle. Aside from anything else, those cradles restricted access to the bottom and keel, which means that you can't do a good paint job.
Incidentally, I think that the reason clubs and marinas have outlawed wooden cradles is because the provincial fire marshals have ganged up with the insurance companies on the issue. Three clubs that I know of had ultimatums based on the fire risk.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Before we bought Towser, we looked at a Georgian Bay boat that had had a propane stove/oven. The owner had hardly used the oven portion and its presence robbed the boat of any galley stowage. The boat stayed on the market for ages, so the broker had advised that he have someone rebuild the area in the original configuration, but with a propane cooktop instead of the original alcohol. It sold quickly after that.
My sense of ovens is that they're great, if and only if you have a 1st-class icebox, to allow you to freeze casseroles, etc and take them on your cruise. I once sailed on a tub of a cruiser whose seriously insulated icebox kept food frozen hard for 2 weeks with minimal ice consumption, so we were able to cook dinner in the oven while sailing, drop anchor and have dinner with minimal preparation. We tried the same behaviour in an oven-equipped boat with a normal icebox and we ended up throwing much of our frozen food away after five days - we couldn't keep up with the thaw rate. The oven wasn't used after that - it's not as though you want to roast a turkey in the middle of summer in a small boat with minimal preparation area. Our experience was mirrored by friends with an Express 30 with an oven. After some initial enthusiasm, they just didn't use it and cooked all their meals on top of the stove.
You'll find more discussion of propane installations in earlier threads by using the search function.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
That head has been rebuilt at least twice. If I correctly recall my shot at this, I did dry-fits with the flappers inserted both ways and determined that, one way, it couldn't work at all - the mis-insertion of one valve would prevent the body from being re-assembled and the mis-insertion of another would cause the whole mechanism simply to lock.
This doesn't mean I got it right, only that it is difficult to get it wrong, but then I take pride in surmounting difficulties like this.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Thank you all for your suggestions (you can talk as much as you like about the wind in your hair and the spray on your face, but there's nothing like a discussion of heads to get sailors excited).
To get specific about the problem with Towser's head, there seems to be a lot of back-pressure on the pump stroke, which causes water to squirt from the pump shaft and from the flush/empty valve. On rooting through the tons of stores that came with the boat, I have found replacements for the seals for both (thanks for twigging my memory, Ralph), so, with my usual pathological dislike of throwing something away, I will dismantle the pump body and have one last shot at fixing the problem (clean up surfaces with emery cloth, install new seals, etc). I will also try to back-flush the bowl, as I suspect there is vegetable-matter built up in there from a past summer of heavy weed growth in our mooring.
If this doesn't work, I'll deep-six the wretched thing. Has anyone put in anything but the Jabsco?
I will follow up when I'm satisfied that the problem has gone away.
BTW - for Strider's problem, there are a variety of discussions of various materials (tanks, hoses, etc.) but I cannot remember talk of replacing the recirculating system in toto.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Towser's original head, despite a relatively recent rebuild, is behaving badly (I suspect it was roughly handled during an earlier rebuild, so the newish pump and valve seals don't prevent water squirting out). Everyone knows it's lake water, but there is a vocal junior contingent that doesn't like "toilet water" on them. The helmswoman says, "It's the only thing you haven't replaced - get rid of it."
Has anyone replaced the head? Suggestions?
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
>could you describe in more detail your idea of screwing it to the liner? where exactly do you mean?
I mean wherever you feel is appropriate. I may be wrong, but I sense you're talking about the vertical fibreglass entity that separates the interior from the cockpit as though it were a monolithic piece of fibreglass, rather than a structural moulding (which is what you see outside) and the liner (which is what you see from the inside).
Typically, when people mount things on the inside of the boat, they use short self-tapping screws and screw them only through the liner. Therefore, there are no holes penetrating into the wet world outside, a quality that takes on added importance when attaching things below the waterline (I have a great story about this, but it's too long to tell).
If the adhesive alone doesn't work, you might get away with a combination of adhesive and screws. Alternatively, you might simply run the screws into the teak surrounding the companion. My boat, when I bought it, had the depth sounder mounted this way. I couldn't see a future for it there and removed it, but it was secure.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Personally, I have reservations about the notion of running 4 large carriage bolts through the structure just to hold a VHF. You could probably mount that bracket to the liner (not through the structural coachroof/bulkhead itself) using fairly large-diameter self-tapping screws. Alternatively, you could use an adhesive. I have found that silicon bathtub sealant makes an excellent bonding agent. The nice thing about it is that when and if you decide you want to move something, you simply have to warm up the item in question (if it's metal) or soak the area in silicon-remover (if it's not) and you can move the thing without leaving holes.
That gizmo looks like an ideal candidate for this treatment because you can strip it down to just the lightweight mounting base. Clean the area thoroughly then put tape over the area you want to bond it to, trace the outline of the base on the tape and carefully razor out the base outline. Glue your base down, then while holding it immobile, clean away as much goop as possible. Tape the base in position so it cannot move at all. Clean up next day.
BTW - my radio is under the companionway. It's a bit awkward to get at, but it's out of the way.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Inflatables used to have a life that was fairly dependably fixed at 10 years, after which the fabric broke down rapidly and caused hard-to-fix problems. Why not find out what the prediction is for the make and model you are looking at, then base your offer on that? Call a couple of dealers and perhaps the Canadian distributor and ask what the expected life-span is.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
This is a tough question, because the boat could have been seriously damaged somehow (in a way that may or not be fixable, but could be a financial negotiating point if fixable) or it could be suffering from clumsily applied gelcoat that is causing (and will continue to cause) cosmetic problems.
Are you hesitating before putting in an offer or are you hesitating before paying for a survey? If this is the only vexing problem you can see and otherwise you like the boat, go for the survey (and read the Black Arts article on buying before you choose a surveyor - in my opinion it's better to get a sharp surveyor than a surveyor who's familiar with the Mark V). But don't move without a survey - these cracks sound huge.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
The halyard has probably jumped the sheave or the axle has worn to the point that it has sheared. You'll have to go up to clear it. If the halyard has jumped the sheave, that means the sheave or the box it runs in is sufficiently worn as to create a gap that the halyard could jump into, because normally, there isn't room. Unfortunately, you may have a bit of work to do.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
This may sound like heresy, but I don't think brushes are that important in any absolute sense. I've been varnishing all the teak on Towser since 1998 and I use the 'Best' quality from a chain hardware store (in other words, brushes that would make a purist faint with horror). If I can't find my 'Best' brushes, I also use $3 brushes from another chain that I normally use when painting with oil paint.
I like my brushes firmly flexible but neither too firm nor too flexible, fine-bristled but not too fine-bristled. I should note that my wife hates my brushes, and thinks they're trash. I'd rather try to paint with a concrete cinder block than the ones she likes. In other words, it's personal. I can't imagine using a foam applicator, though, particularly in the light of the remark, "as long as you take your time." When varnishing much more than in painting, you're always working against time.
What I find more important is temperature and sunlight. I like to varnish when it's cool (my own target is 15 degrees Celsius (around 60 F) on a warming day with cloud at the time I actually lay on the varnish (60F probably doesn't happen too much where you are, but I think the temperature trend is more important than the numbers - I wouldn't varnish if the temperature were dropping). If I have to varnish on a sunny day, particularly in summer, I put up an awning and I add a few drops of thinner to the pot every 20 minutes or so. Wind is also to be avoided - it stirs up dust but worse, you lose your wet edge too quickly.
The other thing I do that I think is critical is to chill the varnish (always Epifanes) in the fridge overnight and keep the can in an insulated cooler with blue ice until I use it. Someone told me this spring that he thought that was a bit fussy (the expression on his face said he meant 'marginally less stupid than putting it under a pyramid'), but fortunately the fellow who does brightwork for the concours yachts at the club was there and he piped up that he does the same. His work is stellar, so chilling may be fussy, but I'm sticking with it. I've never found it necessary to strain varnish but that may be just good fortune.
A few other points that I think contribute to a satisfactory job:
<ul>
<li>Don't sand with paper finer than #100 grit. This came from Wooden Boat, which published an article on troubleshooting failed varnish jobs some time back. The author, a consultant for a large US coatings firm, pointed out that varnish bonds to previous coats mechanically, not chemically, so it needs some roughness to adhere to. Sanding beyond #100 makes the surface too slick. If you put the new coat on properly, it will become smooth.
<li>Don't use tack cloths (more heresy, again from the Wooden Boat article). 'Real' tack cloths are cheesecloth soaked in linseed oil but commercial tack cloths can contain all sorts of weird stuff that leaves a residue on the clean surface and this will impede a good bond. I vacuum the wood with a brush attachment, which lifts dust out of the grain and adjacent crevices, then wipe the surface with a cloth soaked in thinner, turning often.
<li>Clean up the surroundings, including yourself. I try to sand and clean up one day and varnish the next morning, wearing clean clothes. If I have to do both in one day, I take off my boiler suit and vacuum it.
<li>Don't dip your brush too far into the varnish and dip it to a constant depth so the varnish on your brush is always wet. When finished, clean the brush three or four times, using a paintbrush comb, then clean some more with dish soap. If you don't get it clean and it gets stiff, clean it with paint remover (more heresy) and wash with dish soap.
</ul>
Varnishing is a fair bit of work, but I don't think I spend much more time doing it than people who look after their Cetol and it looks better. I do a coat every year and I've not had any failures or reason to strip back the trim I did in 1998.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Later boats have handrails that are mounted back-to-back inside and out, so dismounting them means extracting the wood plug on the inside handrail and withdrawing the long woodscrew. Early boats may differ.
Unless you're wedded to the idea of teak, consider having stainless steel rails made up. They'll cost you more, but you'll never sand or varnish them, nor will you fret when large teenagers stand right in the middle of a span. This is something that CS Yachts got right.
If you want teak, making your own handrails will get you a reputation as a craftsman that is disproportionate to the actual skill required - you need a tablesaw, a bandsaw or good jigsaw, a router and some basic woodworking skills. If you want someone to do it for you, any decent woodworker with access to teak could copy the originals (and you do want an exact copy, so the holes match). Noah's in Toronto (see Links) is very good at making boat parts.
While you've got the handrails off, replace the balsa surrounding the screw holes with epoxy to prevent water entry into the core if the handrails should leak. If you don't know why, see the Black Arts entry on Critical Path's deck repairs.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
If it's been going on so long that the ply backing plate has completely rotted away, a few decades more or less won't matter. But seriously, a fix should be on your to-do list after haulout, as a good bit of the rain that falls in your cockpit will be going through the gaps and you don't always want water sloshing around in your bilge.
What will be difficult, in my experience, is removing the drain hoses -- they're stiff and old rubber tends to bond like Krazy Glue. You might be lucky (and a powerful hairdryer softens the hose, which improves your luck), but I ended up cutting my hoses in half and levering them off. I didn't mind having to cut as the surveyor had condemned them. I can't remember for sure, but I may even have had to cut one off the fitting. Closer examination showed that the rubber was a maze of fine cracks - not dangerous, but the surveyor was right.
If you do replace the hoses, make sure you get approved hoses as replacements or you may not pass your next insurance survey - which means no insurance, which means you'll get booted out of most marinas or clubs.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
> Is the radio connected directly to the battery or through the DC fuse box for power?
Many if not most contemporary radios depend on a constant connection to maintain tuning presets and a variety of other conveniences like anti-theft devices. However, marine electrical specialists warn against leaving any part of your boat's electrical system live when you're not around. The reasons (bear with me, I'm fishing in my memory for this and I don't have a current reference) range from the risk of flattening a battery (unlikely with a good battery, unless there's a short or unless you leave the radio on with the volume low for a long time) to stray current corrosion, which is seriously destructive of your prop, running gear and sea valves.
The ideal blend of convenience and practicality in a marine radio would either have an internal standby battery to maintain its presets (like a computer) or flash memory that holds info without power.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Would anyone who has an instrument placement that he or she regards as unusual or interesting please [email]davwillca@yahoo.ca">send photos and a description</a> (if necessary)? This is for a future Black Arts entry. As usual, original images are preferred (if you have to re-size to reduce the file size, I'd like a minimum 1000 pixels a side and no colour correction).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
For what it's worth, I've seen a couple of respected boats at our club replacing their Tuff Luff foils this year with identical product (like all plastic products, they get brittle in sunlight, but it seems to take a good long time).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
For the quickest, dirtiest solution ever, do as Bruce Peever did for Scalliwag at the C&C Owners Regatta - pop down to Wal-mart or similar and pick up a couple of the little beach umbrellas they sell @ $10 ea. They sit right in the socket of a winch and will keep one or two people out of the sun. They're quite flimsy, but in a sheltered location, they should be fine.
We have a cockpit canopy that depends on three sectional aluminum poles. It's sort of floppy and a bit of a hassle to put up, but it does the job. Plus we have a bimini that goes over the aft end of the cockpit, but it provides so little shade that I've never seen enough point in it to have it fixed (all came with the boat). I suppose it would work well if we had a zipper on the forward side, so then we could fasten a cockpit canopy to that, but we don't cruise enough to justify the effort.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
PS We also have a square of Sunbrella that attaches to the lifelines and goes over the fwd hatch. During the day we attach it high to provide shade and ventilation, and at night we lower it a bit so we don't both pop awake with the first rays of dawn.
Can't tell you the size of your tank, but you can tell if the tank is full when liquid comes out the vent hose. You can buy a variety of tank-monitoring devices, but most people just learn over time that their boat's tank will look after X people times Y days, after which you need a pumpout.
The valve is there if you want to use your head like a Porta-Potti, in which you give the tank an initial charge of water and chemical. Thereafter, everything is recirculated. Solids are filtered out and smells are deodorized (supposedly). The advantage is that by reusing waste water as flush water, you avoid filling the tank so quickly.
On our boat, we flush with lake water, as governed by a modified version of that old piece of cottage doggerel,
"On this lake of sun and fun,
We only 'pump dry' for number one."
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
In Toronto at any rate, this is a stock item in every marine store. Google for marine stores in Vancouver and Victoria. Check for names in Pacific Yachting.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV