This Forum is supported by C&C 27 owners like you whose membership in the C&C 27 Association makes possible this Forum and the accompanying site. Thank you, members, for your continuing commitment.
You are not logged in.
The Seacraft manual (approx $30) covers all the maintenance work you would normally do with the engine in the boat. The Moyer manual (approx $90) covers all that material plus total out-of-boat rebuilds. Even if you don't do this sort of work, having the manual will make you feel like you are giving something back for the astounding amount of free troubleshooting advice offered on the Moyer Marine site.
I use the Seacraft manual when I do things like winterize, adjust reverse gear, etc. Since I don't do serious engine work, I read the Moyer manual just to learn more about quirky behaviour. I find it well worth having just for that purpose.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Tarp for sure.
Something I once read suggested that you should not unnecessarily expose a part of your boat that is hard to replace or repair if it can be protected with something that is relatively easy to replace. The writer in this case was talking about suncovers as protection against damage from tropic sun, but might as well have been talking about tarps, snow and ice.
The greatest worry of course is that our normal freeze/thaw cycles would allow water between the deck and a fitting, that freezing would expand the gap and suddenly you've got water in your deck core. There is also the concern (mentioned elsewhere, and the effects of which I have seen) of that same freeze/thaw cycle cracking a cockpit drain fitting or the seacock it connects to.
I close my tarp up as tightly as I can to keep the wind from getting inside it and setting it flapping (which is bad for tarp and boat). I reckon that even when it's as tight as possible, there's probably at least a square foot of "ventilation" in the form of gaps of one sort or another. I also have a winter companion slide that's basically a frame for wire mesh – it lets fresh air in and keeps the coons out. Whenever I've visited the boat in winter, I've seen no sign of condensation.
An aside about boats painted with linear polyurethane paints like Awlgrip and Imron: a neighbour claims that a shrinkwrap cover damaged his finish, first from the installer's heat gun and second from the poly rope chafing against the paint surface.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Since reading your original message and thinking about some of the metal on my boat, I found several sites devoted to "homebrew" anodizing, an option that allows you to a) save money; or b) anodize things in disgusting combinations of very un-nautical colours. Another little drawback is a list of ingredients that would attract the attention of the Office of Homeland Security, the EPA or both.
On a positive note, there did seem to be many companies who take it as a point of pride to assist individuals. Several of them displayed galleries of car restoration projects they've helped with. I don't think one of this sort of company would mind dealing with cleats.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
1. The original manual, while superior to most sailboat builder manuals, is still quite sketchy. You may find more and better information by searching this Forum or the body of the site. If you have an Atomic 4, you will find that the original engine manual is useless; buy a copy of Atomic 4 Service Manual, as listed in Links & Contacts (also from most marine stores).
2. I use a small PAR utility pump followed by a sponge. We usually scrub the bilge with Mr. Clean at that time to get rid of odour-generating grunge.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I very vaguely remember a mast section with a plastic insert. If I remember it correctly, the intent was to allow one mast section to fly either a roped-luff main (no slugs or slides) or a main set on slides. To make a spar for a roped luff, all you had to do was slide the plastic insert into the track on the aft side of the section. Since the track was sized for slides, all you had to do to make a slide-set mast was cut a gate for the slides in the track. It was a nice piece of industrial design, except that the insert seemed vulnerable to damage.
This may be what you have. That you have slugs indicates someone either misunderstood the insert's purpose or got tired of rolling up his main and decided that slugs were an easier remedy than pulling out the insert and making the modifications required for a slide gate.
Before you go to the trouble and expense of replacing the insert, see if the track in the mast isn't the same size as a slide. All that may be necessary is to remove the insert and construct a slide gate, and I'm sure that a photo from Distant Thunder or Heatwave will show exactly how to do that. The only part that will cost you any money are the changeover to slides and the (possible) necessity of adjusting the tack offset.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Try South Shore on the Links page for replacements. Alternatively, try having them re-anodized. It may cost more than you think it's really worth, but if you value your time, it's probably cheaper than filling and re-drilling 16 new holes.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I don't know 'VC Watertight' personally; their web site describes it as a filling compound. 'VC Tar' is what I took off my boat. I'm sure it's effective at preventing osmosis, but it always looks as if it had been put on with a shovel.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
"Rolling and tipping" means rolling the paint/gorp/whatever on in the normal way - good coverage, even thickness, etc. over a small area, then before the coating has an opportunity to dry or set, running a dry brush lightly over the surface to smoothe it out. It's easy to learn and it makes a quantum leap in the quality of your finish, especially with a relatively viscous coating like Interprotect that does not self-level readily.
I had the boat sand-blasted to the top of the boot-top because when unloaded, the boat was sitting at the bottom of that line. In use, half the boot-top was immersed and that tended to leave the boat looking grubby all the time.
There was nothing wrong with my hull when I did this. According to Rick Bott, blistering is rare on 27's. I wouldn't get too drastic with your repairs - as in removing all gelcoat - if you're seeing only local blistering. Fix the blistered area, lay on some Interprotect, cross your fingers once, then forget about it.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I had Towser's bottom sand-blasted in the fall of '98, removing 20 years of dead and flaking paint plus epoxy/tar barrier in one fell swoop. The blaster was experienced with boats and left a relatively smooth surface from which minimal gelcoat had been removed (I know this because, understandably, this fellow won't touch the pads - you have to clear off under them yourself - and the difference between areas he'd worked on and those sanded by me was probably measureable in microns).
Rick Bott at ABYC organized about 20 boats at the club that needed better bottoms, so it ended up being dirt cheap - $300, which is less than the cost of Peel & Strip, the alternative I was contemplating. This looks even better when compared with a quote of $7000 given by a thieving Georgian Bay marina to a friend who wanted the bottom of his 40-footer cleaned (needless to say, he did the job himself). Rick does this sort of thing as a business, so you could contact him and see if he would set it up at MCC, this fall or next.
I recoated the bottom in spring with six coats of Interlux Interprotect, each coat rolled and tipped on a hard but uncured prior coat, so no sanding was required except on the last coat for better adhesion of the VC-17. Rolling and tipping gives you a very slick finish with none of the orange-peel effect that rolling alone leaves.
There's little more to say about it - adhesion is still perfect over the whole bottom and the bottom is a smooth as any 27 I've seen.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Decks usually get wet because fittings are loose or the bedding compound is compromised in some way. The best way to fix the problem is to put a good tarp over the boat for the winter, then remove the fittings in the damp area. Clean off any remaining bedding compound with varsol or similar and leave the boat to dry over the winter (I know it gets damp by the lake over the winter, but overall, this will reduce the dampness in the laminate).
Come spring, re-do all the mounting holes with the "drill, fill, drill" process described in Black Arts. You'll have to modify the process a bit -- you've already got holes right through the deck, so you'll have to find a tape or some sort of plug that won't let epoxy run through, but by doing this, you'll ensure that there will be no repetition of the wetness. Re-bed your fittings and you're done. (This sounds a lot more complicated than it is.)
As to your cunningham, where you lead it depends on what you're going to do with the boat. If you short-hand, you'll want it led aft, or it never will be used. If you race with a full crew, you'll want to lead it to wherever the person charged with the main trim will be posted.
If you have any sort of engine or electrical issues, I suggest you call JLC Marine. He sorted out my engine and its electrics and it has never run better.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
You now have Jeitinho? Where have you taken her?
On another note (as you wanted info on looking after a Mk V), look at "Cracked Swage" in Black Arts. As the report notes, the problem is not as threatening as it initially seems, but you might want to replace the item.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I don't understand the point of draining the engine after putting antifreeze in it. Antifreeze provides, in addition to the more obvious function, some anti-corrosive properties. If you dump it, you lose that function.
As Jim Wente points out, boats can get very damp during freeze/thaw cycles. Rather than simply close the boat up, I put a tarp on a frame over it and open it up as much as possible. I used to leave all the hatches and lockers open, but a racoon took up residence in a neighbour's boat one winter, so to avoid that, I made a winter companion hatch that is essentially a wire-mesh-covered hole, to let air in and out. That's not perfect, but the boat seemed to be dry when I visited early in the spring. I also give the engine a good spraying with WD-40 to minimize external corrosion.
The original poster doesn't say where he is but if it gets much below freezing, he should make sure the batteries are well charged and will hold that charge through the winter. A discharged battery can freeze, crack and leak its acid into the boat. Taking the batteries home is safer; it also gives you an easy opportunity to top them up half-way through the winter and just before they go back on board.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
My sense is that batteries are a commodity unless you have a genuine need for (and are willing to pay for) super-premium batteries, be they well made traditional batteries such as Surrettes or the newer tech things. I would be reluctant to pay for premium batteries because the way we use our boats in this country, with a long winter layup, is apparently not good for batteries even if you do look after them carefully.
For most applications, I'm convinced that Crappy Tire's best is more than good enough. The price seems to be as good or better than anyone else's, plus they have the most hassle-free warranty, so if anything does go awry, you've got a new battery for half an hour's effort and a very small cash outlay.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Check the West Marine catalogue. There's a push/pull switch in there that looks identical to the one on my boat. It's made by Cole-Hersee, so it may even be original equipment.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I have this arrangement on my boat (a Mk IV). I think you're right about the flexibility part, so I'd just replace the hose if I were you.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I googled the term and didn't see much, but I only looked closely at the first two entries.
I can't help you with specifics of the model, but the problems with C&C's tend to be endemic to the construction method, so the biggie is water invasion of the core. This is a problem whose seriousness only an experienced surveyor can reliably determine unless the boat's a basket case. General appearance will give you clues to overall condition, but there is, for instance, a C&C I know of that looks great but has serious wetting in the hull (out of sight, out of mind, in this case, because the owner knows about the problem but won't address it).
After that, there are all the problems that accrete on a 20-yr old boat: tired engine, tired rigging, cushions whose foam is shot so you can't sleep comfortably, etc. - the usual catalogue that you think won't bug you, but end up driving you nuts.
If I recall, the 29 Mk II was very nice down below, but not a racing success (like the earlier 29, it took a lot of skill and close attention to get it moving). A friend, (a lifelong racer, who went cruising on one for two weeks characterized it as far too tender for comfortable cruising.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
It's called shrink wrap because that's what it does to your wallet.
Get a tarp and a frame (bought or made yourself - I'll even show you how). A $500 tarp will last 10-20 years if you look after it and you can make a frame in an afternoon for $100. Compare that with shrinkwrapping every year for $150-200.
Plus - while the manufacturer of shrink material has a program for co-operating marinas in the US to recycle that stuff, there is no comparable progam in Canada, so it all ends up in the landfill.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
For a long time, C&C's pulpits were made by a Michigan company called Tops In Quality <www.topsinquality.com>. They may have your design on file. Shipping something from Michigan, though, could end up being a big percentage of the price. Surely there are scads of stainless fabricators in your neck of the woods?
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
> So I would think Florida to Bahamas would be a Breeze. Not really much difference from Rochester to Toronto.
Yeah, and look how reliably the Breeze blew (sorry, non-Lake-Ontarians - local joke).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Read 'Varnish or Cetol', presently on page 4 of the Forum, for a range of opinions.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Beside engine:
Pro: short run for battery cables; easy to get at; close to longitudinal centreline; relatively close to centre fore-and-aft; appropriate use for space that sometimes gets grubby from belt dust, fumes, etc.
Con: rather close to engine and batteries don't like being hot; presence restricts access to carb & fuel pump of A4; take up space accessible from interior of the boat that could be used for things that don't mind getting a bit grubby or that can be enclosed.
A reasonable compromise choice.
Aft settee:
Pro: no engine heat; close to longitudinal centreline; quite close to centre fore-and-aft; relatively easy to get at.
Con: take up prime interior storage space; very long run for cables unless you run them through the bilge (extremely bad idea).
The best racing choice.
Shelf in port cockpit locker:
Pro: short run for battery cables; easy to get at; appropriate use for space (and you can still pile things on top of the boxes).
Con: rather close to engine heat but a relatively well ventilated space; far from longitudinal centreline; far from centre fore-and-aft.
The best cruising choice.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
The zipper foot was an attempt to get a more open foot and some unmeasured area (for racing purposes) off the wind. They are a pain and no one bothers now.
Rope or solid vang? If the latter, follow the manufacturer's directions. If the former, the mast, boom and vang should form (approximately) an isosceles triangle of 60°/30°/90°.
Unless your rig has been modified, your North guy should be able to get measurements from the company database. If you're not sure if there have been modifications, get him to double-check some key measurements against what's on file. He should have a look anyway to check some of the specifics of the rig, like the outhaul arrangement, reefing blocks and the setback for the main's tack.
The Mark I had a reasonable rig by the standards of the day, which wasn't really enough for the light airs of the Lakes and Long Island Sound (where C&C found its early markets). The progressive growth of the rig made the boat more tender, but then you have reef points to reverse that tenderness - use them and you will feel secure. Certainly the author of the story on sailing to Cuba (in 27 Tales) felt confident in the boat's open-sea ability.
Many boats of later design change their immersed shape radically as they heel, so their behaviour changes equally radically and not for the better. One of the continuing strengths of the 27 is that its immersed shape remains balanced fore-and-aft as it heels. As you learn the 27's ways, you will learn to enjoy the predictability this consistency gives to the boat's behaviour in a variety of conditions.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Trailering around the coast looks like a nice way to expand your cruising territory. The mechanics of it sound feasible, but you may want to look at the economic part to see if the effort makes sense.
In the past, using the mast crane, I un-rigged my boat several times by myself and rigged it once (too many opportunities to damage something, so I didn't repeat this). I wouldn't care to attempt either one without a crane or some other high point, like a bridge without modifications.
In Oakville, just west of Toronto, many of the owners used (and probably still use) the bridge that blocks the top of the harbour to raise their masts. You need a bridge whose upper railing is just above the height of the spreaders, a snatch block and line, and that's it.
If that's not available in the bays that interest you, I suggest you make a tabernacle in which the mast can hinge as you pull it upright with the help of sheer legs. The tabernacle does not have to be some massive construction, only strong enough to keep the mast secure as it rises. You could raise the mast using only sheer legs, but a tabernacle would make the task easier and arguably safer. Once the mast is up, all the loads should be carried by the original base.
I've never heard of, and can't imagine, launching and recovering a 27 with a trailer on a ramp, so you're still going to have to hire a crane or Travellift to get in and out of the water. At that point, the incremental cost of having the marina raise the stick may not be worth the hassle of doing it yourself. I'd be inclined to devote some of the money you save by keeping the boat in the driveway to that cost.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
It didn't seem relevant in the context of the original query, but we converted from kerosene, not alcohol (the difference between a pressure alcohol stove and a kerosene stove is in details of the burners plus the need to pre-heat the burners with a small quantity of alcohol before letting the kerosene flow; other than that, the stoves are indistinguishable). When the stove worked properly, it was great -- it actually cooked, rather than merely warming things up the way alcohol does.
However, despite careful maintenance of the burners and attentive pre-heating, we often found ourselves enduring kerosene flare-ups that, while not as dangerous as alcohol flareups, fill the boat with oily black smoke and demand a prolonged cool-down before you can try again.
Some people swear by kerosene for just the reasons given by Clare Jordan, and I was very sorry that it didn't work out because it's so much simpler in many ways. However, kerosene's fans obviously have a knack for lighting the burners. We didn't and the mis-steps were spooking our children, so we went to propane.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
If you'd asked me that question when you were at the island, Bruce, I could have shown you my conversion (done approximately for the same reasons you want to do yours). I'm going to describe it in numbing detail, mostly to hit safety points (marked as <img src="emoticons/icon_exclaim.gif">) that were impressed on me by a friend who manufactures propane appliances.
I replaced a kerosene Kenyon stove with a Princess propane stove, a dual-sensor propane detector/tank solenoid and stern mounted bottle. I chose the Princess because it has a sensible number of safety interlocks <img src="emoticons/icon_exclaim.gif">, looks nice and is well-made and I got a good deal on it (reasons not necessarily in the order given). It didn't fit in the original hole, so I made a stainless steel plate to fit over the original hole and cut a Princess-sized hole.
I ran a well supported <img src="emoticons/icon_exclaim.gif"> propane line from the galley to the stern with all mounting points protected from chafe <img src="emoticons/icon_exclaim.gif">, through a gas and water-tight gland <img src="emoticons/icon_exclaim.gif"> to the solenoid/pressure gauge mounted on the pushpit stanchion (gland, line, solenoid, pressure regulator and joint sealing compound from Marine Gas Components. Originally, the gas bottle was permanently mounted on the stern with a Sunbrella cover (I didn't want to go to the trouble and expense of a proper vented internal locker), but it interferes with the backstay, so I only put it back there when it's needed. Normally, it lives in the anchor locker, which is vented overboard <img src="emoticons/icon_exclaim.gif">.
I mounted an ElectroSystems detector under the bridge deck, wiring it to the solenoid and to 2 gas detectors, one beside the engine and another in the locker under the stove. I chose this because it not only checks for propane in the boat <img src="emoticons/icon_exclaim.gif"> before allowing you to turn on the gas, it monitors the areas continually and will turn the gas off <img src="emoticons/icon_exclaim.gif"> at the bottle if it finds anything while you're cooking. They have one slightly less expensive that only sounds a horn, but having the gas off instantly is worth the extra $70 to me.
When the installation was finished, I had it inspected by a licensed installer <img src="emoticons/icon_exclaim.gif"> who sent a letter to my insurance company. You have to tell them or they'll void your insurance and they are really twitchy about propane. I think the whole thing cost just over C$1,000, with the stove being the biggest piece at about C$500, followed by the detector at about C$350. This sounds kinda pricey, but it cuts away a lot of nervousness around lighting the stove, plus it does a first-class job.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV