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I have always maintained that the safety line should be around the chest of the person going up, so that if the chair itself fails they will still be held up.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey Alan,
I use nothing but butyl tape for bedding all of my deck hardware. Never had a leak since.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Allan. In studying the pictures, it appears that ALL of the boats were stored with the mast up. For those boats which now appear to be without masts, you can see the wreckage of the mast lying over other boats or on the ground. At least, that's how it looks to me.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Back in the dark days when electrics were primitive and all C&C's were essentially brand new, I was trained that you switched to battery 1 (the starter battery) to start the engine, switched to "Both" while the engine was running (so that both batteries would charge) and then switched to battery 2 (the house battery) when the engine was stopped and you were sailing. This was supposed to guarantee that the starter battery would always have sufficient power to start the engine for propulsion and charging. Unfortunately, in whatever excitement was happening around the start line, people would tend to forget to switch from "Both" to battery 2, meaning that both batteries would be getting drained for the radio, instruments, nav lights, etc. On one memorable overnight race, one of our club boats had to use a cell phone to call the clubhouse and request that someone transport a battery out to them because they had remained on the "Both" setting all night long while they played the stereo at significant amplification. They no longer had enough juice to even make a call on the VHF.
For the last several years, my practice has been to simply switch to battery 1 on odd-numbered days and to battery 2 on even-numbered days. This balances the charge-discharge cycles between the two batteries, ensuring that both of them have as long a lifetime as possible. The batteries are identical Series 27 Deep-Cycle units and have no problem starting the Atomic 4. I no longer have to worry about both batteries getting drained out or about maintaining distinct house and starter batteries. As a system, I am quite happy with this approach and my 6-year old batteries are still going strong. If I were more of a cruiser and wanted to maintain a larger bank of house batteries, then I might opt for one of the dual-circuit switches with a built-in isolator, but my current system has the advantage of being simple and of guaranteeing that I always have a starter battery in reserve. This provided real peace of mind for the 3 days non-stop sailing on the Lake Ontario 300 last summer.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
You can see a classic example of why it can be a bad idea to store with the mast up here:
http://www.patraslive.gr/marina/index.html
These boats all blew over in a storm on Monday, March 8th, 2010.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey Alan, "The Battery Sell" is located on Wyecroft road. Full information can be found at 'thebatterysell.com'.
Alan, please be careful of your tone, for though it is wise to be fearful of the awesome power that is the Admin, and it is true that his wrath can be terrible to behold, I have never found him to be capricious. Indeed, the Admin is a paragon among netizens, a shining light of . . .
Um, I think I hear him coming now . . .
Gotta go. Good-bye.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Alan, I used to indulge in Surrette batteries, but the local supply for these dried up and I moved on to alternatives. A Surrette would typically last me 7 or 8 seasons. At one point, I sought to economize by buying a Crappy Tire marine deep-cycle battery on sale. It was great for the first season, but by the second season it no longer had enough oomph to crank my Yamaha 9.9 outboard (I still had the 25 at the time). It took 3 trips back to Crappy Tire and a lot of argument to get a warranty replacement. Five years ago, I replaced the batteries in Carriden. I went to the Battery Sell here in Bronte and bought a pair of Trojan flooded, lead-acid, deep-cycle batteries, Series 27 size. They were slightly more expensive than Crappy Tire, but they are a premium battery (by the way, the Battery Sell offers a discount to club members). After 5 years, they are still going strong and I depended on them last year for the Lake Ontario 300. I leave the batteries in the boat for the winter and just plug in the charger a few times over the winter to top them up.
By the way, for my day sailing and week-night racing I do not make a distinction between starting battery and house battery. I buy identical batteries and then just switch between them to even out the wear and tear. On odd-numbered days I use Battery No. 1, on even-numbered days I use Battery No. 2. This seems to be paying off in terms of longevity and reliability. The Atomic 4 is not hard to crank, so it is happy to fire up from an ordinary deep-cycle.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Wait
a
minute . . .
When did thoughtful become a requirement for disquisitions?
Is it too late to delete my contributions?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
So far this thread has only discussed the purchase price of a boat. My take on the situation is that purchase price is only a small part of the issue. This past summer, one of our club members picked up a 27 MK III, I believe it is a 1978, out of Minnesota. If I recall correctly, it cost him $6,000.00 US, which included a road-capable trailer that should have been worth that much on its own. This was a great deal for the guy who bought the boat, but it is now going to cost him about $3,000.00 per year to maintain the boat and keep it in our harbour. Add in another $1,000.00 per year minimum for yacht-club membership. So, the question becomes this: if you have sufficient discretionary income to throw $4,000.00 a year at sailing, do you really feel the need to buy a cheaper old boat which will then require the investment of a considerable amount of time, money and effort to restore it and keep it going? Or are you going to invest more money in a stylish floating cottage which will do a better job of pleasing your wife and impressing your business associates? Or possibly a hotter racing machine to fuel your adrenaline and self-image? After 26 years of boat ownership, the amount which I have spent on purchasing boats pales into insignificance compared to the associated membership, maintenance, slip and storage costs. At this point in time, I estimate that I have spent $3 to $4 on those items for every dollar which I have spent on the actual purchase cost of my boats. Of course, I only bought used boats, built by C&C.
This brings me to a second issue, which is that the condition of many older boats like ours is starting to decline sharply. Every summer, our harbour-master cuts up a couple more abandoned boats which are impossible to sell, because they have declined too much to be worth the cost of restoration. Even my own 27 is a case in point. I have spent the past 6 years doing repairs, replacements and upgrades which now total somewhere around 1/3 of the purchase price (and I spent way, way more that the young man mentioned above). After the first year, I started asking myself if I had made a mistake, because my C&C 25 had not needed anywhere near that much work and investment after I bought it. Then I reflected on the fact that my 25 was barely over a decade old at the time of purchase, whereas Carriden was 25 years old at time of purchase. Those extra years of UV, wear and tear made a huge difference, even though Carriden had been in relatively good shape. Fiberglass may not wear out or break down, but most of the other components do. So, I would argue that many of those "affordable" old boats are not necessarily so affordable if you factor in the cost and effort of making them truly shipshape and maintaining them in that fashion. Refer to the thread in this forum on the cost of replacing a troublesome Atomic 4, which approaches, or exceeds, the purchase price of the 27 which I mentioned at the beginning of this rant. Also, smaller old boats are often in worse shape because their owners typically have less money to throw into maintenance, and large investments in maintenance are harder to justify. An acquaintance of mine moved up from his 25-footer to a 30-footer a few years ago. He did it because the new boat was an awesome deal from south of the border, fully rigged for racing with a good sail inventory, at an incredibly affordable price. Now he faces the situation of being a hard-core racer who cannot afford to replace worn-out sails because the sails for the larger boat are so much more expensive.
A final point to make. Going back to the issue of total cost being much more than the purchase price, the cost of mooring, winter storage and even club membership continues to increase at a rate way beyond the rate of inflation. My winter storage costs increased by nearly 30% over the last 2 years. If you are in the privileged sector with spiraling executive compensation, this is not as much of an issue. However, if you are a simple working stiff, or a pensioner on a fixed income, it is getting harder and harder each year to justify the expenditure and come up with the scratch for a purely luxury item. My own belief is that this rate of increase is partially fueled by rapidly increasing associated costs, such as the cost of dredging. But I think that a lot of it comes from the scarcity issue: "Hey, you don't like our prices? Where else are you gonna find a slip in this area?" When this attitude is coupled with a local government's antipathy for boaters, everything simply becomes less accessible and less affordable for the working stiff. Talking with my own harbour-master's office reveals that they expect the mix of boats in our harbour to change dramatically over the next decade. They anticipate that many of the smaller old boats, like our 27's, will disappear and be replaced by larger new boats. If this occurs, it will cause a reorganization of the harbour and a reduction in the total number of slips. Elsewhere around the continent, marinas are being replaced by waterfront condo developments and government-run harbours are silting up and falling into disrepair. Cruising associations are deeply concerned about the growing practice of charging mooring fees in areas which used to be free.
So, those are my core concerns around the economics of sailing. It is an issue that has been much on mind over the last few years, especially because my own club faces the possibility of being priced out of existence, thanks to the renewal cost of a land lease with our local government. Do these issues resonate with anyone else out there?
(P.S. Sorry if this seems to be a run-on paragraph. The editor is eliminating all of my paragraph breaks. Admin, do you have any suggestions?)
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
[The Admin doesn't know. It bugs him, too, but he's been too busy to do anything about anything other than the attempt to spam the Forum. - Admin]
It seems counter-intuitive, but when I checked the weight of the plastic shackles against the weight of the small, fixed-bail Wichard snap shackles the difference was only a couple of grams. What I did find from experience was that it was easy for the pin on the plastic shackles to snap at the end with the ring, which causes the shackle pin to disappear and renders the shackle useless. I used to use them on my light-air lines but I gave them up and returned to the Wichard units.
Alan, judging from the class specs, Etchells have a considerably smaller spinnaker than ours. I certainly would not be inclined to trust sister clips for the loads on our spinnakers, although I was happy to use them when I had a Shark.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Alan, you can rent a polisher for the day from Stephenson Rentals on Speers Road in Oakville. Way cheaper! However, buy your polishing pads from Canadian Tire or Home Depot. Stephenson's charges way too much. I also recommend using "3M™ Imperial™ Compound and Finishing Material", which I was put on to by Jimmy Pollock at North Shore Boat Works. It cuts, cleans and compounds all in one application. The only other thing that you have to do is apply wax. The 3M compound is available from Bristol Marine in Port Credit.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
The location of the holding tanks evolved over the years. In the Mark II and Mark III versions, the holding tank was located outboard of the head. These were polypropylene tanks moulded to the correct shape to fit between the teak bulkhead behind the toilet and the inside surface of the hull. The top of the tank was accessible through holes cut in the shelf which forms the bottom of the locker behind the sliding doors located in the top portion of the bulkhead. I would not recommend this as a location for you to try and use, as you are not likely to find the right shape of tank (unless of course you salvage one from a C&C 27 which is being scrapped). Also, this location often causes problems with the hose running from the toilet to the tank, as it needs to curve up through the sink locker and the space behind the bulkhead, arcing over just under the deckhead behind the sliding doors and the curving down into the top of the tank. This means that there is a roughly 1-metre section of hose which stand essentially upright and is always filled with waste that has been pumped from the toilet. If there is any problem with the seal where the hose is attached to the toilet, or the hose is not odour-proof, then things can become unpleasant on-board. It has took me two full seasons of experimenting with clamps and caulking to get my hose-to-toilet seal water-tight (or at least urine-tight). I am forwarding a couple of pictures of Carriden's holding tank installation to David for posting on the Black Arts page. These were taken while I was refitting and refinishing the interior.
In the Mark IV, C&C shifted the holding tank to a location up forward under the V-berth. From the perspective of running hoses from the head, this was greatly preferable to the previous location. The down-side is that it locates the weight of the tank's contents further forward, which is not great for sailing performance. You can of course source a rigid tank to fit in this location, but perhaps I can suggest a simpler, more cost-effective solution. Vetus, a Dutch company, manufactures bladder-style waste and water tanks. I fitted one of their 72-litre waste tanks under the V-berth of my C&C 25 and used it there for two decades without any problems at all (and no bad smells). You would need to glass in some strong points for fastening the corners of the bladder so that it cannot shift in rough conditions, but that will be much simpler than having to glass in a shelf for a rigid tank. Further, if you ever have to do any work on the hull, or simply clean under the V-berth, the bladder tank is easily removable. Based on my own experience, this is a relatively inexpensive and simple solution to the holding-tank problem. The bladders are available in a variety of shapes and sizes, so I am fairly sure that at least one of them should be a reasonably good fit.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
To follow up on the very valid pro and con points which Scott has made, there is one aspect of the issue which has not yet been discussed and after thinking about it I feel that it should be mentioned. Scott has pointed out that having a boat topple during the winter can usually be attributed to indequate blocking of the jack-stands. While this is undoubtedly true, it skirts a couple of key points. The most basic point is that many of us are storing on manufactured cradles, typically ones from the Marine Cradle Shop or something similar. These cradles have a specific width, which is usually a bit less than the boat's maximum beam. Since the cradle is not expandable, you can not really alter the blocking or the widen the stance of the base which supports the boat. I personally have witnessed the damage to a C&C 33 which was stored on such a cradle with the mast up and which subsequently toppled. The hull was split down the side and the boat was written off by the insurance company, which was heartbreaking to an owner who had invested considerable time and money in upgrades and modernization.
The second point is about subjecting the hull and chainplates to unnecessary stress. We have all witnessed the fact that boats in their moorings will heel somewhat when their bare poles are struck by strong gusts of wind. This heeling action eases the loading on the stays, turnbuckles, chainplates and bulkheads. As the boat leans and yields to the wind, the buildup of stress on these components is reduced. However, when a boat is up on the hard and solidly blocked, all of this load is directly transferred to the chainplates, bulkheads and the parts of the hull which rest against the pads. One potential result may be that the chainplates move and work, breaking the seal with the deck and allowing water penetration. Another possible effect is that as the chainplate works it may loosen the bolts which fasten it to the bulkhead or enlarge the bolt holes in the bulkhead. The parts of the hull against the pads will flex, possibly starting some delamination. Whatever the end results, the strains are obviously significant if they are capable of toppling boats which weigh several tons and would otherwise stand unmoved by the winds. Why would you want to subject your hull and rig to such wear and tear?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Our mast storage area is subject to road salt and other de-icing compounds coming down from the bridge and roadway above and beside the storage racks. Some years ago, I noticed pitting and corrosion taking place along the mast where the stays rested against the sides of the mast. Since that time, it has been my practice to remove the side-stays, backstay and halyards from my mast prior to storing it on the racks. The forestay is buried inside the roller furling, so it stays on.
Since I began this practice, I have had no further problems with pitting and my halyards stay new-looking for years and years. It is a little more effort, but it guarantees a full inspection of the stays and lines at the same time, so it is worth it. I have managed to catch some unexpected wear on my halyards before it became a critical issue. I also wrap the mast in Tyvek house wrap for each winter. This is better than plastic because it breathes and does not trap moisture. All of the plastic-wrapped masts inevitably end up with bags of water hanging down from the rack.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
The notion of a backstay adjustment chart only makes sense if you first establish the initial tension for the backstay and forestay. You may also need to factor in the amount of mast rake.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey Doug,
Have you already tried getting more grease onto the rudder post? There should be a grease packing cup on the side of the tube housing the rudder post, under the cockpit sole. Certainly the later Marks had them, mine is on the starboard side of the tube. I make sure that the cup is filled with grease every spring and then screw it down well to force grease into the post tube and all around the rudder post. This also helps to block water from coming up around the rudder post when we are sailing in a chop. It might be worth dropping the rudder this winter, cleaning both the post and the tube and then giving it a really good coating of grease upon reinstallation. Just don't get grease where the steering quadrant clamps on, you really don't want that to start slipping.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Your installation is not unique, it is the same as other C&C Edson installations of that vintage. It is just that the Edson reference link which David supplied is for a later vintage pedestal, when Edson had incorporated the shift and throttle levers into another casting which sits on the central pedestal, between the wheel sprocket and the compass.
Carriden has the same cable arrangement as Iris does, as do numerous other mid-1970 C&C's in our harbour. In order to replace the either the shifter or throttle cables, you will need to disassemble your pedestal from the top. Ultimately, this will give you access to the top of the shifter linkage, which you can then begin to disassemble. You will need to push the cable housing up from underneath the cockpit sole in order to bring the "fork" up to the point where it can be unscrewed from the end of the cable. Before you can do this, you will need to find the point where the cable housing is "anchored", which keeps the housing from moving as the shift lever moves. You will need to release this anchoring point so that you can push the cable housing up through the stainless tube, to provide access to the fork. Once you have the anchor point released and the fork unscrewed from the end of the cable, you should be able to pull the cable out under the cockpit sole and proceed with replacement. At least that's the theory. I have not yet had to do a cable replacement myself, so take all of this with a grain of salt and evaluate it against your own installation. Good luck!
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey Doug,
My 27 has an Origo 4100CB double burner stove, which is a drop-in replacement for the original inset alcohol pressure stove. These are still available from retailers, or you may want to cast around on eBay to see if one comes up there. Otherwise, Mason's Chandlery (The Store) in Port Credit has some new Chinese knockoffs which are virtually identical, but lower in cost. I find that having two burners makes meal preparation a lot easier.
I have augmented my Origo stove with a Forespar Mini-Galley 2000, which is a fully-gimballed unit using the small propane tanks. This hangs on a removable mount on the bulkhead directly in front of the companion-way stairs, so it is only mounted while we are actually using it to cook. In that location, we can monitor it from within the cabin or from the cockpit. Being gimballed, it allows us to heat things up while under way. On this years' Lake Ontario 300, we used it to prepare all of our hot meals, coffee, hot chocolate, etc. Its primary drawback is the limited pot capacity, which often means feeding just one person at a time. Still, it conveniently uses the same propane tanks as the barbecue, which makes life simpler. Transat Marine is the Ontario distributor for Forespar, your local chandlery can order from them.
Hope this gives you food for thought. I still have my copy of "Against the Odds" by the way. It has your autograph and Don Green autographed for me as well when he spoke at our club the other winter. Thanks for the memories.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
For the past 24 years, I have rigged my boom vang to also function as a preventer, simply by attaching a snap shackle to the bottom of the vang, which allows me to unsnap it from the base of the mast and snap it onto the toerail, abeam of the mast. The toerail is more than strong enough to handle the load. I cannot count how many times the heads of my racing crew have been saved by this simple procedure and the Admiral (she who must be obeyed) is always quick to insist on a preventer for a dead down-wind run.
HOWEVER, I consider it an essential element of rigging the vang that the line must be long enough to allow a tack or gybe of the boom even while the preventer is rigged. In my opinion, too many sailors who use the vang as a preventer fail to provide for this. If you cannot immediately release the line and gybe the boom, then you have severely limited your manouvering ability. My vang comes back to a rope clutch on the cabin-top so that it can be released immediately, and I always ensure that there is enough free line to allow for a gybe.
During one regatta in which I participated, a crewmember was killed on another boat when an accidental gybe caught him in the head with the boom. On my own boat, I have had crew knocked overboard by an accidental gybe (right in the middle of a start line, it messed up half the fleet). My obligation as a skipper is to ensure that no member of my crew ever ends up injured from an event which I can prevent with a bit of foresight. Since Mother Nature insists on being capricious with her winds, I do not feel that merely keeping a weather eye on the Windex is enough precaution. Just last night, we had a 180-degree windshift in the middle of our down-wind leg, with no prior warning at all. Having the preventer rigged meant that the boom remained under control the entire time.
As a secondary benefit, when the preventer is rigged I can occasionally gain a saving grace or a bit of advantage on the race course through sailing slightly by the lee for short periods of time. This is not a practice to be encouraged (God help us if the preventer fails), but sometimes it helps in a tight or crowded situation.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
John, if you reach the point of parting out your boat, I may be interested in your blower motor for the engine compartment. Is the original C&C blower? What kind of condition is it in? Are the bearings/bushings making any noise?
I am not in any hurry here, but if you come to that point I would be interested in discussing it with you. My original C&C-installed "cage" blower bit the dust and the replacement "in-line" blower is not making me happy at the moment.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
I have replaced both pumps in Carriden with Whale foot pumps and we are very happy with them. The notion of trying to wash hands, or anything else, when one hand is busy pumping just drives me crazy. Speaking from experience though, it is worth the money to buy genuine Whale brand pumps, rather than Chinese knockoffs.
As an alternative, it may well be worth going to electric pumps and pressure water. The price differential is not that great and they may be easier to install than the foot pumps. You just have to teach your crew about tight water discipline, since an electric pump can empty the water tank very quickly.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Link added. Amen. - Admin
On a Mk. III, there should be drainage through from under the V-Berth right under the floor of the head and into the sump over the keel. However, this drainage applies from a central point at the apex of the "Vee" where the floor space intrudes into the V-berth. You know, the area which is covered over by the fill-in board and cushion when you are actually sleeping in the V-berth. Any water which gets under the floor of the head should drain through this central passage into the sump. However, it might just be possible for water to get trapped under the raised area of the floor-pan upon which the actual toilet sits, if the bonding agent which anchors the floor-pan molding to the inside of the hull has filled in all the spaces.
Allan, have you tried to see if water will drain from under the V-berth into the sump? Also, older models of the 27 have glassed-in water-tanks under the V-berth. I don't know how that might affect the drainage patterns in this area.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
OK. Thanks for doing the follow-up work.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey David,
Can you confirm that the legislation has in fact been passed into law? The changes to the Small Vessel Regulations (Canada Shipping Act 2001) appeared in the Canada Gazette (the official publication of pending and enacted Federal Laws and Regulations) as a PROPOSED change in the April 25th, 2009 edition. However, I have not yet been able to find an entry saying that the changes have actually been enacted into law.
This situation is especially confusing because the Coast Guard was handing out new "Safe Boating" booklets at the Toronto Boat Show, but were at the same time cautioning people that these changed regulations were not yet law. Their expectation was that the changes will become law at some point during the summer. My concern is that someone might comply with the requirements of the changed regulations and then find that they do not pass inspection under the still-current regulations, resulting in fines and charges. This would not be reasonable or rational, but when have governments or legal bureaucracies ever been reasonable or rational?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
For years I struggled with a Whale angled pump in my C&C 25, repairing, rebuilding and continually cursing it. The best that could be said about it was that it was state-of-the-art in 1974. I replaced the angled pump in my 25 with a Whale Galley Gusher foot pump and a simple spigot over the sink. Happiness, and easier washing, was immediate. When I bought Carriden, one of the first changes that I made was to replace both the angled pump in the head and the flipper pump in the galley with the Whale foot pumps. I have never regretted the investment. I did have to make up some cover plates, out of scrap teak, to cover the large double hole and the screw holes in the counter top. The spigot for the water outflow is mounted through a hole in the middle of the cover plate and projects down through the original double hole in the counter top. If you are moderately handy (and what sailor isn't?), then the process of cutting a slot in the cabinetry for the foot-pump lever is really a minor challenge.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario