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The 21' 0" L.W.L. should refer to a Mark I hull, which is what we call the Mark I and Mark II (a Mk I with taller rig - see "Evolution"). The Mark II hull, which we call the III and IV, has an LWL of 21'8" or 22'-10.5" depending on whether you look at the original drawings or C&C's marketing description (which is what we use in the Assoc.). The Trapper should be a simple Mark I (by anyone's numbering) and the Trapper pages suggest that Trapper made the keel switch themselves.
I cannot comment intelligently on any of the other variations, except to say that if your waterline length is 25 feet, you have entirely too much stuff on board.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
http://www.unitedpropeller.ca/main.htm
In Orillia (Stephen Leacock's Mariposa, town of 800 inhabitants and 400 souls -- or words to that effect). Talk to them first, but I was advised to send the old shaft, coupling and prop. You will have to pull the old cutless bearing to get the size of the hole in the p-bracket.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
When you use the word “about”, how “about” is “about”? How confident are you of the 7” keel width at 1’-4” from the bottom of the keel?
Not particularly, because I wasn't specifically looking at or measuring that. The 5"x2" was measured, as was an 8" wide plank that formed part of the support under the cradle's crossbars. The point where the keel flared to a constant chord thickness was measured. I sighted down the line of the keel to the 8" plank and estimated the amount of plank visible on either side, so that value is probably accurate to 1/4" at that point. My sense is that 7" represents a constant, but I can't guarantee that and I forgot my camera, so no pics.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
By C&C's reckoning, there only ever were a Mark I, which we call the I and II, and the Mark II, which we call the III and IV. The Mark I/II designation was only ever used internally, not to the market. Your "Mark II" is by C&C's numbering, a Mark I with detail enhancements.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
The foot of the keel fits neatly into a 5"x2" u-shaped steel channel (relatively thin-walled). It flares out to about 7 inches thick about 6 inches above the bottom.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
C&C were really good at manufacturability that didn't compromise other values (unlike many contemporary production boats, that appear to be built to a target price, rather than a standard). Avoiding drilling extra holes (12 a side on a 27?) pays dividends in the factory and during the boat's life.
According to George Cuthbertson, one the reasons the company came together as it did is because the builder partners not only liked the design ideas, they liked the careful (and fully specified) detailing of Cuthbertson and Cassian's building plans.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
The outboard mounting screws pass through the stanchion base and down through the toerail, deck and hull flange on the same hole spacing as is already present on the toerail, so no additional holes need to be drilled (just longer screws). Look at the detail from the photo in Guide which shows one of the outboard screws (and clearly shows the inboard reinforcing plate).
I don't know if the toerails are exactly the same.
<img style="border: 0;" src="../../photos/stanchions.jpg" alt="" width="644" height="324" />
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
One of the differences between a Mk II and III is the design of the stanchion bases. The II has cast and plated bronze bases that rely on four machine screws through the deck, inboard of the toe rail. This not only takes significant deck space (one reason that people sometimes switch to the rail-mounted style) but entails holes through the cored portion of the deck. On the 3-legged Mk III/IV style of base, two of the mounting holes pass through toe-rail mounting holes while the third (on the inboard-pointing foot) passes through the core-less outboard portion of the deck and a backing plate. Therefore, while it's possible for one of these bases to be the source of a leak, that leak at least won't wet the core.
One issue with this type of base is that a good strong inboard push on a stanchion will crush the glass under the foot. The standard fix, which you can see on the photo in Guide, is to bed down a square of stainless or aluminum under the foot.
Other than that, replacement of a base is straightforward. The only question is how to bed the holes. To avoid mixing materials when I fixed my bases, I used some of the Tremco butyl gorp that had squeezed out inside between the deck and hull flange; there always seems to be enough somewhere to pack around the bolts on the toerail. For the third leg, I cleaned the area and bedded my stainless plates with 3M 5200 for its adhesive properties.
When you are doing the work, spin the machine screws in to reduce the amount of sealant that gets pushed through the hole (and away from the area it's supposed to be sealing). Once the screws are down, have your assistant (and you will need an assistant unless you have very long arms) hold the machine screw immobile while you snug up the nut from below. If you are using Tremco gorp, you can finish the job there and then. The fastening should be firmly snug but not super-tight, or you will squeeze out all the bedding compoundIf you are using polysulphide or 5200, you have to give it a chance to set, so run the nut snug, but, not more than maybe a half-turn beyond firmly finger-tight. The next day, when the 5200 or other bedding compound has set, come back and again have your assistant hold the machine screw immobile so as not to break the seal, and give the nut another half-turn.
This is a job for which a socket set makes all the difference in the world; trying to do this job with a wrench is absurdly difficult.
Hope this answers all your questions.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
First, a question -- do you have the type of stanchion base that through-bolts down through the toerail and also through the deck via a short inboard-facing leg? (One of these is visible on the left in Guide to the Marks, Mk III/IV Anchor Well.) Or some other type?
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
According to published sources (including the article on this site), HIN's weren't required until 1972. Your out-of-format number probably reflects the company meeting its own needs for permanent identification of its product, or an attempt to anticipate the requirement.
It really wouldn't surprise me if the US Coast Guard had announced the requirement for an HIN without telling anyone what an HIN was supposed to look like until the last possible moment. This seems to be a common bureaucratic ploy.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
This site includes several references to books on sailing by Association member and Diva-sailor, Douglas Hunter. We are pleased to announce that Doug has been short-listed for the non-fiction category of the Governor-General's Literary Awards. For our American readers, this is akin to nomination for a Pulitzer or National Book Award. The subject is, in effect, the winding of the mechanism of rivalry between the French and English that shaped the founding of Canada and the United States.
According to the Awards web site, God's Mercies. Rivalry, Betrayal and the Dream of Discovery "takes the stuff of the exploration narrative, a tale many times told, and makes it new and compelling. By bringing 17th-century rivals Henry Hudson and Samuel de Champlain together onto the same canvas, Hunter creates a memorable, suspense-filled and elegantly-written drama."
God's Mercies is published by Doubleday Canada (ISBN 978-0-385-66058-7) and is available from bookstores, Amazon,ca, Amazon.com or Chapters.
God's Mercies has also been highly praised by reviewers. Most of the web sites noted above quote some reviews, so we won't repeat those here. Congratulations, Doug.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I rewired Towser completely several years ago and it's not hard, but it's fiddly. First, though, make sure that you need to. Many electrical problems are caused by corrosion of terminals and the wire/terminal joint. Clean the terminals and mounting blocks with 220 or 400 wet/dry paper until you see bright metal. Test.
Rewiring a mast is straightforward. Measure (twice) to the masthead and to the steaming light, giving yourself at least a foot of extra at the top and two feet at the bottom. As originally wired, you would have had a masthead, spreader and steaming/bow light. This may be a good time to add a tricolour if you want one - or think you might one day. Follow the colour coding in your manual (and of course, if you don't have a manual, remember that Association members are offered a .pdf of the manual - unique in that it is searchable [end of commercial]). For simplicity, run a full-length black (negative) wire to the masthead and to the steaming light - don't try to make one do double duty.
Finish at the bottom by joining the two black wires into one, then bundle the wires and cover them with shrinkable tubing (the stuff that shrinks tightly over the wire when heated). Buy a good-quality plug and socket to join the wires to the boat. I have an AquaSignal plug that's about $40, which is ridiculous, but it works well; crappy plugs can be the weak link in an otherwise good wiring job. Alternatively, clean up the old plug carefully. Also, I put solder on the tips of the wire where they mate to the plug; it's absurdly time-consuming but it minimizes corrosion.
Any of the materials you need for this job are available at Genco, West or possibly Dock Shoppe. Marine wire is expensive, but don't buy cheap stuff; automotive terminals seem to be okay but make sure you buy the right sizes. Buy a wire stripper, soldering iron (if you're going to put solder on the ends) and terminal crimper; they will make the job easier and much better (you cannot strip wire properly with a pen-knife or pliers, or at least I can't). You can buy these and shrink tubing, including some really tough stuff made originally for Ont. Hydro, at Active Surplus on Queen West. Practise using them on a short length of wire before going to the real thing.
Adding a battery charger means adding shore power if you don't have it already; if you need advice about the advisability of DC wiring, you should not be doing AC wiring, particularly on a boat.
http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/36.htm
A slight digression - thinking about electricity prompted me to add an inexpensive but really worthwhile tool to the <a href="../../fixes/sparestools.html">Tools & spare parts</a> list in Black Arts.
Who to suggest if you don't want to do this yourself? First, you have to find someone competent. As I said, wiring the mast isn't hard, but it should be done carefully and neatly (neat is a reasonable beginning gauge of quality - messy wiring is almost always bad wiring). Then you have to find someone who will come to QCYC. Can you ask around the club for anyone who has had something done recently? That should kill both birds. Good luck.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Towser's A4 had a cast iron water injection elbow sufficiently tall that it had to be removed before the engine could come up off its mounting studs. From the elbow, there was a relatively small but obviously sufficient downward slope to the s/s waterlift cannister, which was perhaps 6 or 7 inches tall, excluding the inlet and outlet pipes.
There's nothing about these systems on the Web because, as you suggest, there aren't any (or many) negative stories to be told and so everyone simply takes them for granted.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Towser's original exhaust used a waterlift muffler (a stainless coffee can with inlet and outlet on top) mounted on a plywood platform over the stuffing box. Exhaust hose ran from the water-injection elbow down to the inlet, then from the outlet through the under-cockpit bulkhead up in a loop into the space between the cockpit and transom and down to the stern outlet.
Since the hose was all under the cockpit, the lockers were clear and the exhaust hose was safe from chafe by locker junk. As most of the length was hose, there was little to resonate with exhaust noise. The hose didn't go very high into the transom, nor was there a siphon-break anywhere, which isn't ideal, but there was no indication water had ever been siphoned.
The diesel's exhaust, in addition to what can be seen in the photos, now includes a 180-degree elbow with siphon break on the exhaust line. This passes through a hole conveniently located high up in the plywood brace between the cockpit and transom.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
There is a thread here with various recommendations including the Starbrite material and something called Barkeeper's Friend (US only?). Both contain oxalic acid. I'd be careful with this stuff in pure form. I've used it in really low concentrations for bleaching rust stains out of wood - it makes TSP look like baby powder when it gets a chance to attack your skin.
One contributor suggests Mr Clean with Marseille soap, which sounds reasonably similar to Murphy's Oil Soap.
I prefer to use my power washer to clean the deck. It's kinda noisy, but does a superb job and no cleaners are required (the cleaner the chandlery sells is supposed to be super-green, but it does leave foam on the water, which may earn you the hairy eyeball from one or more of the club's self-appointed Earth Police). You just have to be careful not to point it at joints.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Look at this repowering job - http://www.keithford.net/boatstuff/repower/repower.htm . Looks a bit precarious, but it evidently worked.
I pulled my engine on the water the first time using the club mast jack. Can you move the trailer to the one in the yard you're in (assuming it has one)? When the engine came out for replacement, it was pulled by a strop dropped from the tines of a forklift.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Tried listing with a broker? I bought my 27 through George Ward of Ward Yachts in Toronto.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
This seems an opportune time to pass on a tip I got from an ex-Canadian Forces Starfighter pilot - clean your dodger windows with Gilette Foamy.
He told me that canopy cleaning was a task that the pilots did not delegate to ground crew, but did themselves. Foamy was the agent of choice because at base, it's very finely milled soap and nothing else, so it gets into any scratches that are there and removes dirt, but won't add to the scratches that inevitably are already there.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
My lifeline hardware was made by Merriman, now long gone. Your manufacturer may have suffered the same fate; certainly, I haven't seen that sliding ring design for decades.
I replaced my lifelines and associated hardware with new stainless pelican hooks from Johnson. They incorporate a lever action in the hook that allows you to make the gate tighter with much less effort. They're a great improvement over the originals.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
You specify maintenance and upgrades as your target interest and say that your DIY skills are minimal, but you're willing to learn (a description that fit most of us at the outset). Your offer to help someone else in exchange for learning is a good one. You'll find that much of the first year's maintenance consists of cleaning things that the previous owner ignored, painting the bottom and buffing the hull, neither of which are terribly demanding of knowledge or cash ($20 for wax, $100-$120 for anti-fouling paint - a figure that admittedly is a guess as I use fresh-water paint and you'll want salt-water paint).
After that, the upgrade question depends on how well suited the boat was to your purpose (for instance, does it have the right kind of anchors for your intended destination, or was it a racing boat with a minimum-weight anchor?).
There is also the question of your tolerance for shortfalls. As I've already noted in Buying a C&C 27, we thought we could live with our cushions, but they turned out to be too deeply mouldy for us to sleep on, so that took care of an Xmas present to the boat. Ditto the rope clutches - we could have lived with them for a while longer, but using them was a struggle, so we ditched them. 'Nother couple of hundred.
On the other hand, all the lines were green and stiff with mould and I thought they'd have to go. Almost ten years later, we're still using the main halyard and the rest only went because they were ridiculously oversized and all white (we like colour-coded for racing). But we used the old lines for about five years and they looked fine after I ran them through the wash machine (I told this story to a fellow I know recently and he said that chance remark saved him $400 - pad the hardware and bundle the lines with twine so they don't get so tangled, then do them in a laundromat that has spin washers; "Bleach For Unbleachables" is okay and kills mould, but real bleach will ruin the lines).
So, a lot depends on you. And of course, if you're willing to learn, which means asking questions, that's what this site is for.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Copyright does not apply to information, just to the specific form of information. Teleflex could legitimately bitch if we posted their pdf, but not if we re-write the information in their pdf as you have done (we did something similar for the article on head odours as the article itself wasn't available). In short, your post is okay.
Perhaps the simplest information sharing method is to post the link. Failing that, it's usually possible to Google technical papers if you give the title and manufacturer's ref. number.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Registering for the Forum is not membership in the Association. The manual is available only to current members of the Association. Join the Association and the manual is yours for the asking.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
That's not a bad idea, just putting in a standard grease fitting; it probably makes more sense than the grease cup. I think I'd be inclined to leave out the hose, though. There's enough impedimenta back there without further encumbering the area with the "convenience" of an extension hose that might be used once a year, if that.
C&C built a large custom boat for a man who wanted all sorts of safety features and mechanical maintenance contrivances (he was heavily influenced by a friend who'd been a Coast Guard captain). Everyone said it was a marvel of integrating safety and convenience in a modern yacht, but it floated two inches stern-heavy and didn't sail worth a tinker's curse.
Every harbour boasts a little coterie of guys who spend all their time cooking up gimmicks like this to impress each other, and adapting "projects" they've extracted from the pages that yachting magazines publish for putterers like them (fortunately, few of them have as much money as the fellow referenced above). Keep it simple, I say (then you won't feel stupid) and make sure that "projects" contribute to sailing functionality, rather than existing for their own sake.
Oh, and I wouldn't bother South Shore or Klacko with a question like this - this isn't a part that has "specs" or an installation where the thread size is important - it's just a grease cup that's been stuck in there with polyester putty.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
This is what they look like (near the bottom of the page). The cup screws on top of the fitting and the fitting just screws in to the fibreglass rudder tube. Chances are, the cup just fell off and disappeared somewhere (are you sure it's rusted away and hasn't just fallen off and rolled under the engine?).
If it's been like this for four years, I'd leave it until haulout, then unscrew the old fitting's base and take it to an industrial supply house. They might have a replacement. If not, see if they'll tell you what the thread size is on the base and search the internet for a supplier.
Please write back when you find an answer and let us know what you learned. Finding answers for head-scratchers like this is what makes the site valuable to us all.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
South Shore is known to be e-mail challenged and Klacko is more a metal-artistry rather than fast-customer-service kind of company (that's not meant to be a denigration - small companies can't be all things to all people and this is just where they put their energy). Investing in a phone call will probably get you the response you want - and I'd do it now while you think of it, because these sheaves can't be a high-volume item and you don't want to find yourself on the wrong side of a back-order.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV