This Forum is supported by C&C 27 owners like you whose membership in the C&C 27 Association makes possible this Forum and the accompanying site. Thank you, members, for your continuing commitment.
You are not logged in.
I've read a fair bit about noise reduction in the past and many of the requirements - making baffles in any air opening, covering every surface without exception, blah, blah - are simply impossible on a 27. My new diesel initally seemed so noisy, though, that I felt compelled to at least try a simple installation of a sheet of sound insulation.
The material is a half-inch layer of foam, about an eighth of an inch of a very heavy flexible material (a mix of lead and plastic?), another thinner layer of foam, bringing the total up to about an inch, then a layer of shiny plastic/foil. The sheet measures about 36" x 48" and cost C$86 at Genco in Toronto. I also bought a roll of 3-inch aluminum tape at Cdn Tire for C$5.00 and a can of 3M "77" spray adhesive from a weird discount hardware store behind Genco for C$15.
I measured all the surfaces in and around the engine space, as I wanted to cut the sheet in the most efficient manner. This turned out to be a good idea as one sheet doesn't go very far.
The club's head mechanic told me that most noise emanates from the head, not the crankcase or transmission, so I should concentrate on sound-reflecting surfaces in the forward end of the space. With the material I had, I was able to do the removable front (excluding the door), the storage area to port of the engine (perhaps the insulation will reduce ice consumption?) and the engine box lid. I have a piece left over suitable for the underside of the cockpit, but I couldn't bear to put it on in last week's heat.
Cutting the material is a bitch; a large pair of scissors does a neat job, but it's really slow, blister-raising going. Once the material was cut and dry-fitted, I taped the exposed edges with the aluminum tape. I don't know if this is essential, but it was done in a professional installation I looked at, so I thought I might as well do it. After that, I wiped down the adhesion areas with Varsol twice. The spray nozzle is very precise, but in some areas, I masked off areas where I didn't want glue. Then it was simply a matter of spraying adhesive on the back of the foam and on the sticking surface, aligning both carefully (you get *1* chance with 77 adhesive) and pressing down.
Thus far, the reduction in sound is not dramatic, but it is signficant and quite worthwhile, as the insulation seems to reduce the most irritating component of the sound. In other words, the engine is still fairly noisy compared to an A4, but it doesn't bug any of us. In the fall, I'll probably buy another sheet and in addition to insulating the underside of the cockpit, do the area under the sink, the side of the fuel tank and the removable bits of ply that close off the engine space.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I saw them, they existed.
One of the boats came down to Toronto for a regatta that turned out to be monumentally windless. At the end of the day, when everyone had finally struggled across the line, the Oakville/Bronte contingent simply scattered as fast as they could, obviously anticipating a request for a tow. The genius with the beanie prop (nice name, btw) was left to struggle home at two knots, possibly reflecting on the old adage that the evil that men do often comes back to haunt them.
Something similar was also done on a quarter-tonner, a Luna 24, I saw a few years later. The owner had not only had the prop milled down, he'd had about 3/4 of the thickness of his prop shaft machined away to reduce its impact. I don't know if he ever dared put the engine in gear.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
"Always" is a long time, but around 1980, a couple of comedians in Oakville equipped their boats with fixed props that had been ground down to blade widths of about 3/4 of an inch, so as to get the fixed-prop credit while incurring minimal drag. The props were completely useless, of course.
I could never figure out why the measurement guidelines didn't have some clause whereby a measurer could disallow any feature that was obviously intended to circumvent the rules.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
First pass results with the new prop:
C&C 27 Mk IV Towser
Yanmar type 2YM15, 2-cylinder 14 hp, 2.6:1 reduction
Flex-o-fold 14x12 rh
Two runs, flat water, with and against light wind
RPM Average speed
1200 3.8 kt
1600 4.7
2200 5.8
2400 6.7
At 2600 rpm, vibration becomes excessive. This didn't occur with the 12x7 blades left over from the A4, even at 3600 rpm when the noise became so oppressive that I lost interest in proceeding. I assume that the new blades (which are very heavy) aren't quite in balance. I will therefore have the prop dynamically balanced over the winter.
The engine is obviously working harder and this, curiously, has the effect of making it quieter, or at least shifts the noise into a less irritating part of the spectrum.
Reverse thrust is excellent, with surprisingly little prop walk at normal reversing speeds. The crash stop was a surprise, though. The first time I did it, going into reverse at 6.5 knots then goosing the engine up to 2200 rpm, I deliberately made no attempt to compensate for the boat's motion. In the course of a very fast stop, we spun 160 degrees. That made the people on the adjacent boat dock stare.
One last note - In addition to this bladeset, the Flex-O-Fold rep spoke also of the 15 x11 as a possible. Eventually, we decided it was iffy in respect of hull clearance, so I went with the 14x12 set. We never discussed the rudder as a limiting factor but it just might have been a hair too close when the prop is opening and closing (there might be 5/8" clearance at the closest approach, but I didn't actually measure it so then again, there might not have been). Of course, the first time the prop opened with a burst of power, it probably would have accommodated itself with a suitable excavation in the rudder's leading edge, but that's not hydrodynamically ideal.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Apologies to anyone who has ever owned a Grampian 26, or is, however distantly, related to someone who owns a Grampian 26, but these were once described to me by a cheerful sailmaker as the ultimate rule beater.
Grampian 26's, he explained, are generally owned by superannuated idiots who smoke pipes, sleep in their Tilley hats and fantasize about using their astonishing seamanship to rescue comely maidens from rogue waves. Their racing prowess, needless to say, keeps the G26's rating from being adjusted down from 400 or wherever it currently is.
To win PHRF, then, forget about whamm-o sportboats that the ratings boys will eventually notice - just buy a G26, replace the phenolic blocks and the pool-cover sails, and if you're even moderately competent, you'll be able to sail the thing backwards around the course and collect a bullet on time.
I'm not suggesting that you do this - your 27 is a much more honourable boat. I would, however, suggest that you buy some underwater epoxy and fasten a couple of bricks to his keel. That ought to fix him.
Some sailmakers used to cut sails for a furler rather flatter than racing sails so they wouldn't develop a mass of loose cloth in the centre when partly rolled. Of course, this made them useless under almost all conditions, but I'm sure someone still thinks it's a wonderful idea. Fred's ideas are better.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Search for the term "rig tuning" in the subject field and you'll find a discussion of this subject. Bruce of "Moonstruck" has provided a good and comprehensive discussion.
In thinking about the whole business, remember that your forestay tension is largely determined by backstay tension.
My rule of thumb is that the upper shrouds should not slacken in any expected wind, the foreward lowers should prevent even a hint of inversion of the stick in that wind and the aft lowers should be snug enough that they don't wave around and distract everyone.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I think they're just dim about e-mail. I've never been able to contact them that way (most of Canada has it in for Toronto, but I can't imagine the hatred extends to Niagara-On-The Lake), but they're perfectly reasonable on the phone.
Please let us know what happens - if your experience mirrors mine, I'll make a note on the Links page that you really have to phone them if you want to contact them. [Done.]
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
An early Mk III like yours had this conversion done six or seven years ago. I didn't examine it closely, but externally it looked almost exactly like a factory job in respect of subsequent placement of cleats, position of the cutout, etc. The fellow who did the work glassed in a ply bottom and bulkhead, making a watertight compartment that drained through the stem, just as the factory version does. As to the deck, if I recall correctly, he cut the core back a bit, filled the gap with resin putty and gelcoated it over.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__sad_ratio.htm
A large collection of sailing-related calculators. No computational ability, no thinking required. Perfect for those of us who have difficulty calculating a tip.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
When I pulled my tank apart as part of the conversion to diesel, the mechanic noticed that Teflon tape had been used in joining the various components on top of the tank (a cutoff valve, a non-return valve plus various connectors and hose barbs). Gasoline and diesel soften and eventually dissolve Teflon tape, which then migrates and coalesces on your filter and anything else handy. Accordingly, I disconnected all the components and re-assembled them with sparing amounts of pipe compound (from any auto parts store). You might want to ensure that there's no Teflon on yours.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
We used to have difficulties in furling until I added a strop between the head of the sail and the upper swivel. This raised the swivel to the top of the foil, so there was no length of halyard available to wrap and cause problems.
We normally release all the tension on the backstay before furling and ease the halyard.
Tightening the adjustment screw below the drum on your furler may get the sail a good sixteenth of an inch closer to the deck.
As to tacking your genoa to the deck without removing the drum -- if it seems to work, run with it. I'd be concerned, though, that the uneven strain on the luff would tend to pull the sail out of the luff groove. Your competition would find that more entertaining than you would.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Read my query, "Propping a diesel", down the page. Ralph Ainslie's answer should cover you.
Flexofold recommended a 15x 11 or a 14 x 12 two-bladed folding prop, but my gear ratio is 2.6:1. I don't have it yet, so I can't tell you how it will work out.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Later The 14 x 12 prop is installed and is a great improvement over the size intended for the A4. Reverse thrust is astonishingly good.
This may not be quite the answer you're looking for, but the hand pump on my boat obviously perished and was replaced with a Whale Galley Gusher by the previous owner.
http://www.whale.ltd.uk/marine/product_list/1/13/
The foot pedal projects through the cabinet below the middle of the door. It's much better than a hand pump, particularly in the galley, because it leaves your hands free.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Try South Shore, listed on our Links page, for a replacement.
You don't specify what you mean by "break", but have you explored having the item repaired? There are a lot of very good machine shops in the Oakville area and one might be able to help. Klacko, of course, is a marine specialist but I'm sure there are others. If South Shore doesn't have the part, one of these might be able to make a replacement.
Please let us know how this turns out.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
If you are buying a dacron sail, you will want to make allowance for stretch, but laminated materials don't stretch very much (in the order of one or two per cent). Most of what you take in when you tension a halyard is the halyard itself (unless you are completely crackers and have sprung for high-modulus halyards and even then you will get some elongation from straightening of the fibres).
This site gives, on the Sea Change page, a Luff Perpendicular (LP) of 15'7" for a 155% genoa, so you've got that part right. Foot length isn't an issue for racing, but will give you a sense of the sail's shape. If you think about the geometry involved, a high-aspect-ratio sail will have a relatively short foot length, while a low-aspect-ratio sail will have a foot length more closely approaching the leach length.
All of which is to say that a sail with the right luff and the right LP measurements may not fit your boat. I would suggest that you try to get hold of a genuine Mk V 155% genoa, pick up the measurements from that (luff, foot, leach) and then try to ascertain what any variation in these measurements means to sheeting positions, etc.
Sails that are an almost-fit can sometimes be modified successfully, but there are limits to what can be done if you want to race and enjoy the process.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Was the prop shaft really loose in the old bearing or had something gotten into the bearing to bind the shaft?
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
As detailed ad nauseum in "Atomic 4 replacement", Towser has now been fitted with a diesel engine, a Yanmar type 2YM15, 2-cylinder 14 hp. We knew right from the start that the 12x7 Flexofold folding 2-blade - which I recommend highly as a prop in general and specifically that size as an A4 prop - wouldn't be right for the boat, but put off replacing it until we could run the boat with it and determine a baseline for the new prop.
Part of determining the new prop's values will be done by logging present boatspeed as a function of engine RPM, but I'd also like to find out what others have. Please let me have engine type and horsepower, gearing if known, present prop's manufacturer, size and pitch. Oh, and whether you think it's on the money or if it is deficient in some way.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
>I'm wondering ... if you have gained further "enlightenment" and/or caveats.
Yes, I have. When you ask someone to order something, make sure that person follows through and gets the item immediately, rather than putting the item on his calendar to order when he thinks you will actually need it. As of today, the required new watertrap - not actually ordered until recently and subsequently found to be out of stock - will arrive "tomorrow" (but then, as of Wednesday last, the required watertrap was due to arrive "tomorrow").
Fortunately, friends will tow us out and back into the club lagoons for races and the weather is too foul for pleasure jaunts.
One issue that has arisen, not just with my boat but with a 36 owned by a former 27 sailor is that of shift cables (I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but didn't realize that it was going to be such an issue). A4's require a cable about the thickness of my middle finger to handle the shift load, while the Yanmar needs only a throttle-size cable. You can't use the A4 cable, though, because the A4 shifts with a fore-and-aft motion, while the Yanmar shifts up-and-down. The A4 shift cable isn't long enough for this change of direction nor is it flexible enough to make the necessary turn in the space provided, so you have to get a thinner, more flexible shift cable. Probably this isn't a problem if you use the Yanmar control - see Ralph Ainslie's setup in Black Arts - but I wanted to use my existing control mechanism, the standard for tiller-steered Mk III's and IV's, a Morse control that mounts on the side of the cockpit.
Getting the cable isn't hard (it's only money), but adapting the existing mountings requires some thought. My solution for the Morse was simple and appears to work (but took me about three hours' fiddling to get right). I'll post a picture "tomorrow" when everything is finished.
If you have a binnacle, retrofitting the smaller cable is absurdly difficult. I wasn't around for the fun, but the mechanics who were working on the 36 still haven't stopped swearing about the seemingly endless parade of little difficulties and corresponding, time-consuming improvisations.
Three other things:
1. "little things" take a ridiculous amount of time in the confined space of a 27 (but you knew that already). Just removing the old wire and other crud, then installing a made-up harness took about two hours when all is said and done.
2. There is no better time to service sea-cocks than when the engine is out.
3. C&C screwed down the battery hold-downs with carbon screws and mine were totally rotted (years ago my wife sailed an overnighter in which they got hit hard enough to wash the spreaders - the batteries broke loose and made a most unpleasant mess). With the engine out, it's easy to get under the plywood platform and bolt the wretched things down.
When I know more, I'll let you know.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I replaced all my Easylock clutches with Spinlocks and they are a wonderful improvement over the earlier things. They hold better and they are easier to open under load (though people with weaker hands sometimes find they have to be partly unloaded if a halyard is really tight).
My deck in that area is a real Swiss cheese from the previous owner's mess of gear, but thus far nothing has ripped out (old holes were filled with gelcoat, new items were mounted with fender washers).
The one minor complication in mounting the Spinlocks is that double clutches are wide enough that you have to compensate for the curvature of the deck. I did this by cutting that curvature into blocks of Starboard material with a router. I chose Starboard because I didn't want more wood to varnish.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Are you on the right boat? From an aesthetic and perhaps even moral and spiritual point of view, you certainly are. These are very good boats and you are definitely joining an elite group of sailors.
From a purely pragmatic "will I win races?" point of view, it depends (I'm assuming you're racing on handicap). If two boats of different size are equally equipped, with equally skilled crews and fair ratings, they should finish in a dead heat; the one who wins will be the one who made the fewest mistakes. In that sense, you're definitely a contender.
The one problem is evening racing. Some years back, two statisticians from StatsCan analyzed about a thousand races and found that for any given division, the larger boats achieved significantly better results, individually and collectively, in the evening than they did in the day. They reasoned that evening is usually marked by a dying wind, so a big boat, by finishing earlier, sails in less soft air than a smaller boat and thus comes in with a better number on corrected time than the smaller boat that has been sailing in zephyrs. This however is a statistical probability, not a certainty; boats from the 27 start in my club's evening races regularly clobber larger boats boat-for-boat from the earlier start.
Having said all that - and forgive me if I've misunderstood your post or the situation you're in - but the fact that you have to ask this question suggests that you're not all that familiar with this aspect of sailing. You might do well to concentrate on developing skills and knowledge, leaving a lust for winning to a somewhat later date.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Bob Wilson had (I believe) an Adler Barbour unit on Legacy, a Mk III. A fellow named Bob Honsberger had a Nova Kool unit on his Mk II. Both these boats have been sold, so their owners don't show up any more. Sorry I can't tell you more.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
If you Google the name, the first two pages relate to an adverse judgement at the US Nat'l Labor Relations Board, an ominous sign. However, vindicating Clare Jordan, page three gives several listings for RV sites. A company called CaravansPlus lists a part that sounds like what you are looking for. There's no listing for the company, though, so they may be gone and this place is just selling old stock.
When in doubt, Google.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Mould is not nearly the issue on the Great Lakes as it is in hotter locations, especially if they are on salt water. Nothing ever seems dry on salt water, not even hard surfaces, so it's no wonder spores bloom.
We wipe the interior down in spring with lemon oil, which apparently kills spores. After that, it's just a matter of keeping things clean. I've seen boats that have been to all intents abandoned that have become very dirty, then mouldy, but it takes some serious neglect before a boat gets to that point.
Winter is the risky time, because you get those multiple freeze/thaw/rain cycles in November and March that makes everything so damp. Many people leave the cushions on their boats over winter, but I've found that those left that way often slowly acquire a skunky quality. I bagged mine and left them in the locker over the winter this year as an experiment, but I prefer to bring them home. I completely wrap the boat with a tarp and leave it open as much as possible to reduce the condensation.
Anywhere that I can, I wash with a power washer (deck, stern lockers, around the engine). They are amazingly effective and though you sometimes get a curious look because people seem to think it's overkill, that's better than getting the evil eye because you're filling the surrounding water with soap-suds (even if you did pay an extra five bucks a bottle for the "green" stuff).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
We pulled the head and the gasket was fine (when I discovered the problem, the engine was behaving magnificently, which made it all the more galling).
The problem lay deeper in the block and I didn't want to send another $3k chasing after the first for a second rebuild. This engine was also fresh-water cooled - I'll probably salvage the good components, such as the cooling system, electronic ignition and new alternator and sell them.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Acetone quickly breaks the bond between 5200 and just about anything I've tried it with. (Don't let it get anywhere near plexiglass.)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV