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Could not any reputable marine welding shop help with specification of the internal webbing? If sailors in Britain are anything like sailors in Canada, they must frequently be called on to mend or replace rudders and be familiar with the general spec. Same with the layup.
No idea what the NACA number is, but if you like 0012, run with it. As I said, I can give you a rough outline and foil sketch after haulout and you can compare them.
Your "stable rudder" condition sounds like mine. As I said, I use it to "orbit" in one spot when putting on lines and fenders.
The load to get to that stable condition remains a concern. We powered out into the lake to watch the air show on Monday (boring - they've moved the quarantine line a lot farther out into the lake than it used to be, so it's much better to be on land). I took particular note of the effort required to maintain a straight course, and it really only is a light pressure on the tiller. Even in waves, my Autohelm handles it easily.
I can't believe that I wouldn't have heard if the earlier boats couldn't be handled with an autopilot, but that's just guessing. What we need here is someone with a Mk I or Mk II to jump in here with real experiences with autopilots.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I _think_ it's available in 1/2", 3/4" and 1". Check http://www.kingplastic.com/. West sells it in their catalogue, but as to individual stores...
You might have better luck if you check out local plastics outlets. There's an industrial supplier near here called Plastic World and they sell something very similar if it isn't actually Starboard. (You're making a fairing block, so perfection is not mandatory - you just want it to be dimensionally stable, easy to work with, waterproof and able to hold bottom paint.
My block is not epoxied on. I coated the mating surface with 3M 5200 and held it mechanically with the transducer while the 5200 set. Five years later, there's no sign that the seam is opening.
How thick? Don't remember. I think I assumed that the inboard side of the block should be at least 1/4" thick so as to be stiff, then measured out the width of the transducer plus an allowance for rounding the edges. Measuring from that point on the hull down to a level that touches the inboard point gives you the thickness of material that will allow you to fit a vertical transducer.
A page on transducer location and installation has been added in the Special Interest section (see the nav bar at left)
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Certainly there is room for both transducers. My boat had a depth transducer that was immersed in oil in a tube glassed inside the hull (I assume that's what you have). I ground the area smooth again and drilled a new hole next to the speed transducer (which I also replaced).
I can't show you the outside of the hull (at least for a couple of months) but I can send you a photo of my layout inside the boat (which I did when I bought the boat in '97). The speed transducer is mounted flush with the hull, but for the depth transducer, I made a fairing block that cancels out the angle of deadrise in the hull at that point. This ensures that the depth transducer is pointing straight down and giving a fair reading on both tacks.
I made the fairing block out of a plastic material called Starboard. It's shaped sort of like <o> (where the o is the hole for the transducer. I then split the flat shape on a saw to get two pieces, that when installed give the correct angle outside and inside the boat (for security, the retaining ring should lie against a smooth surface all around its circumference).
I drilled the pilot holes from inside the boat, then used a hole saw from outside for the full-size holes. The hole saw made nice neat holes, but it makes a colossal mess, so you want to do it from the outside and wear a mask.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
There is a discussion of this topic archived as "transducer location" (see page two of the Forum topics).
Mounting a transducer forward of the keel is a good idea on a later style of hull, with flat and horizontal surfaces forward of the keel (see later C&C's or J-boats, for example). When the hull has a deep v shape, such as is used in the 27, you have to create that flat area - in other words, you have to expend a huge amount of effort to create a fairly large bulge in the hull in what is hydrodynamically the worst location for any disturbance in the waterflow.
Moreover, you have to consider what's inside the boat. Close to the keel, access could only be achieved by turning the head compartment sole into an access plate (and I'm not sure there would be enough room under it). Under the v-berth, you've got a tank in the way (at least on my boat) plus you've got to create a really monstrous bulge for the transducer due to the acute angle formed by the hull. (It also occurs to me that unless you really know what you are doing, you are creating a potential weak spot in the part of the hull that is most stressed in large waves.)
Everyone puts their transducers under the forward dinette seat. It's a good compromise and I've never heard anyone express regret at having done so.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
This is a consolidation of several posts made to "C&C 27 General Questions" - questions by Frank Marsden and responses from me. Perhaps the creation of a new rudder-specific topic will bring in comments more learned on the subject than mine, which are limited by my lack of experience with the 'scimitar' rudder of the earlier boats. Does anyone have an _informed_ opinion about the amount of helm induced by the two rudders? More to the point, does anyone know of a boat that has had its early-style rudder swapped for the later spade?
As to Frank's last question - "is the rudder available?" - the answer is yes. Making one here would be simple, but it probably wouldn't make sense financially as the shipping costs would be vile and there are lots of people capable of this work in England. If an informal copy of the rudder were required, any one of us could provide an outline and foil shape. If more formal advice were required, there are a number of C&C alumni (George "Big C" Cuthbertson, Rob Mazza, Steve Killing) who could be asked to advise.
>I have a Trapper 500, which has the MK I rudder design with tiller. Under sail the steering loads are light, but under power, quite heavy, and if you let go the rudder immediatly goes hard to port.
>
>Does the later rudder behave similarly?
I wouldn't describe the load as heavy, but it's definitely there.
If you leave the tiller, the boat immediately begins making a tight circle. I prefer to think of this as a 'feature' rather than as a 'bug', because given enough room for a circle, the boat tends to stay on the same patch of water more reliably than when stopped. When single-handing the boat, I have several times found myself having to make changes to the fender or line setup before approaching the wharf. Allowing the boat to describe slow circles while I do this is a better option than trying to stay put while stopped.
>I have just made an adjustable strut, which is the remains of a dead (Navico) tiller pilot, to see if that will help, will try it out this weekend. I am often single handed.
>
>The outer harbour I use most frequently (Weymouth, Dorset, England) is fairly narrow, busy with yachts, dinghies, fishing boats and rowing boats ferrying holiday makers across. The concept of a sudden hard turn to port is simply not acceptable.
>
>My last boat (Hustler 25.5) didn't do this, but gave enough time to put out a fender, etc. The fundamental difference between the boats, which are quite similar in hull shape, both with balanced rudders, is that the balancing area on the C&C design is high, and in the prop wash, whereas the Hustler (Holman & Pye) has a higher aspect ratio rudder, which the balancing area at the tip.
>
>Both boats are remarkably similar under sail. Impeccable. Hence my query abut the later, higher aspect ratio rudder.
>
>If I were to make a change to the rudder, I would rather fit a recognised design than cobble up one myself. Is the later rudder available?
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I am answering Frank's rudder questions in a new post, reserving this one for discussions of 'things to watch out for'.
This is a bit of a 'me-too' post, inasmuch as I want to reinforce "John C&C 27 MKIII 1976's" remarks about decks and main bulkheads. While searching for my own boat, I walked the deck of a 27 whose deck was so delaminated that the stanchions leaned in to greet you as you stepped on the adjacent deck. Water had clearly entered via the handrails, which were so loose as to be wobbly. Other than that, it was a great boat. (I'm only being semi-facetious - everything else was in good condition, but the owner obviously had a massive blind spot here. It would be a good purchase if you went in with your eyes open and the price were adjusted appropriately.)
The other zinger I saw was a boat with a cracked main bulkhead (don't know about the delamination issue - I thought the deck was keyed in, not tabbed). The broker said that this is a common but infrequently noticed failure - a fracture in the ply on the starboard side of the opening, where the ply is at its least vertical thickness. The teak finishing boards hide the failure, so you have to have a good look at that area to see if there has been any movement.
As to tanks, etc., when you do the suggested check, don't get too spooked by a "leak". We had problems for the first year that had us semi-convinced of a cracked tank. Turned out to be a series of minuscule leaks caused by all-but-imperceptibly loose hose clamps. As to hoses - we have replaced every one in the boat except the drinking water hose. That has probably cost $500 to $600 Cdn., but the purchase survey condemned the 20-year-old drain and fuel hoses, the head hoses failed the wet-rag test three years later and the five-year survey nailed the exhaust hose. Rebuilding the Whale pump and replacing the hose (smooth-bore with plastic ribbing) cost C$120. (All costs are materials alone.)
My insurer has told me that two 27's in Ontario have lost their masts to rigging failures (again, this stuff is 25-35 yr. old so it's no surprise even with fresh water and a short season). A forestay is C$90 and a set of lowers is C$400. If you're still interested, I'll let you know how much uppers and a backstay are next spring.
You tell yourself you aren't going to fuss over stuff and 'oh, I can live with that', but when you have enough mosquito bites, you start to scratch.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I wouldn't describe the load as heavy, but it's definitely there.
If you leave the tiller, the boat immediately begins making a tight circle. I prefer to think of this as a 'feature' rather than as a 'bug', because given enough room for a circle, the boat tends to stay on the same patch of water more reliably than when stopped. When single-handing the boat, I have several times found myself having to make changes to the fender or line setup before approaching the wharf. Allowing the boat to describe slow circles while I do this is a better option than trying to stay put while stopped.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I can't help you directly but I do have some unsolicited (read: useless) advice.
You don't say where you are, but if you're in Ontario, consider going to Marine Cradle Shop. They do a very solid cradle that gives you good access to the bottom of your boat. Their cradles are well thought out in terms of folding really flat while being more than normally resistant to damage in the off-season. Cradles built by non-specialists don't come close. http://www.yachtsales.com/trailers/mcs/cradles.html
The only thing they do that I don't understand is to put carpet on the pads - why put something that holds water next to the hull when it's better to have it dry out over the winter? I use hard rubber.
Failing a purchase from Marine Cradle Shop (who probably have your plans in stock) can you not take the offsets off your existing cradle?
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Greetings, all
As you may or may not have noticed, the site has a new page, "The Fleet", on which I hope we can display photos of many 27's. Naturally, in order to do this, we need *your* 27.
Please have a look at the page and the submission guidelines. If you have any problems in submitting, drop me a note. My e-mail address is on the Fleet page (not here, though, because I can't add the anti-spam encoding on these pages). Alternatively, reply here.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
I don't know who wrote the "kinder & gentler" post, but I agree with him. All the sailing mags are full of these "replace your gas engine" articles, but they seldom are honest about costs, which seldom stop with the engine itself. I recently heard a "drop-in replacement" horror story that ended in a bill for C$13,000. This admittedly is an extreme case, but the usual quotes for C$6,000 seldom include items like steam cleaning the fuel tank, replacing the hoses and (very probably) the prop, etc.
Unless you are thinking of going on a long cruise with a lot of motoring time, rebuilding what you have makes much more sense. I had mine rebuilt for C$2,000 and it wouldn't be my first choice to cruise down the ICW, but for running out to the race course and tootling around Lake Ontario, it's just fine.
Check out Moyer Marine (on our Links page) for some more sensible arguments from a guy who used to be an aviation safety expert.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Forgive me for saying so, but it sounds like the proposed solution is going to add a problem where none existed. If you swap the transducer out on a regular basis, you are likely quite adept at it; what little water comes in probably just drains away into the bilge, out of the way.
If you make a box, that water will fill the seat area as you make the swap, making it difficult to see what you are doing and generally complicating things. If a _lot_ of water comes in during the exchange, it will, instead of flowing into a bilge that has room for it, fill your new tank then overflow all over the seat, sole, etc.
Far better to have a nice softwood plug to bang in the hole if there is a real problem. Thinking about jumping in the "soup" you speak of to bang in the plug should make you extra careful not to cross-thread or otherwise damage your transducer or its replacement.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
>A) The boat has "COMBI" gauges that aren't working. Repair or replace. I'm
>guessing that repair is out, so..
I remember Combi, and I don't like what I remember. Everyone in Toronto seems to be going to Raymarine, which appear to be good quality and reliable.
>B) Can the transducers/speed wheels for new guages be installed while the boat is
>in the water?
You have to be really, really quick. Go out when it's seriously honking and strap everything in tight while on a reach. While knocked down, send your most agile friend out on the keel with a tube of caulk and the transducers. Send any resulting photos to this site.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
> 5200 is an adhesive as well as a sealer. It is virtually permanent, and VERY difficult to remove. You will even need Anti-Bond (a special solvent) to get it off.
Not in my experience. Acetone cuts through like a knife.
Neither polysuphide nor 5200 last very long once opened and I generally only use half a tube of goop per season. At $14 or $15 a tube, there's a limit to how many I want to throw out. Accordingly, I've standardized on 5200 (without any compelling reason for wanting the adhesive properties). Habit more than anything. Sikaflex is nice, too.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
It occurs to me that many of the posts to this forum are of the "how can I..." or "where can I find..." nature. These will get answered more quickly if others know where you are and what you sail.
The "Profile" feature of this bulletin board allows you to create a signature that is automatically applied to every post. I have created my own with my boat's name, mark and location (see below). You may have additional ideas. Begin your sig file with a carriage return to get proper spacing automatically.
The bulletin board also has a nice feature that works if you submit a profile, an automatic notification of a response to your post. For this, you obviously need to give it an e-mail address, but you can make that visible only to the bb application to help reduce the likelihood of your address falling into the hands of spammers.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
The holding tank and the freshwater tank are both under the V-berth (don't want to confuse those hoses!).
David Weatherston
"Towser"
C&C 27 Mk IV
Autohelm used to sell an aluminum bracket shaped like a flattened Z (like this: -\_, except the left hyphen should be at the top, not in the middle). With the bottom leg bent a bit to match the slope of the 27's tiller, it worked nicely to raise the connection point so the Autohelm would sit level (which it has to do). I looked in Raymarine's online catalogue, but it doesn't currently appear (which doesn't mean in doesn't exist). Any marine metal shop could make one from 1" x 3/16" or 1/4" stock.
The previous owner had installed the bracket permanently but I didn't want that because it's a real sheet-catcher so I mounted it with wing nuts. I also moulded a "saddle" from epoxy on the mounting face of the bracket, to make the shape of the bracket's base match the shape of the tiller. This makes the bracket secure and wobble-free without having to reef the nuts up so tight that the finish of the tiller would be damaged.
Someone was asking earlier if it's possible to mount a tiller pilot in such a way that the starboard cockpit locker can still be opened. I don't think that's possible.
David Weatherston
"Towser"
C&C 27 Mk IV
I had some leakage around mine; moreover, I had heard from a friend about a 27 that had required expensive repairs around the chain plates because water had run down the opening and entered the deck core (the opening is simply cut through the glass-&-balsa laminate - it should have been solid glass at this point, but hindsight is marvellous). The owner of this boat is also to blame because he responded to the leak by sealing the _underside_ of the deck, which meant that entering water had nowhere else to go but into the balsa.
Therefore, I removed the cover plates and the chain plates themselves (a socket set is essential), gouged out the balsa as far in as I could reach (once you've loosened the balsa, an Allen key in an electric drill cleans out the material quickly), then filled the cavity where the balsa had been with epoxy stiffened with cabosil. The water entry had been mild or not of long term so although there was some staining on the bulkhead where the bolts passed through, the bulkheads and the chain plates were sound. I re-installed the chain plates then replaced the cover plates using 3M 5200 as the sealant.
One leaked slightly this spring, so I pulled the cover, cleaned everything with acetone and rebedded it. No more leaks. I was told by a fellow who does this repair regularly that, while the chain plates were off, I should have roughed up the bonding area to give the 5200 better tooth. I think I just didn't clean it properly. You be the judge which of us is right, or just be the belt-&-suspenders type and do both.
David Weatherston
"Towser"
C&C 27 Mk IV
On my 27, the holding tank is under the V-berth and I expect that's true of your boat as well. Remove the cushions and have a look.
If you had to replace the head, your hoses are probably rather aged as well. The good news is that the new hose (at least, the white Australian hose that most Cdn chandleries are now selling) is much more stink-proof. The bad news is that sanitary hose is expensive. Other (less) bad news is that it's a bitch to bend through the convoluted path in a 27. I used a heat gun (very gingerly) to soften it up.
David Weatherston
"Towser"
C&C 27 Mk IV
Bob Wilson of Legacy has an electric pump and it discharges on a dedicated line just under the toerail at the very stern.
That strikes me as ideal because you don't want any possibility of water siphoning back up the line, either because the boat is filling with water (thus allowing what is supposed to be a discharge line to contribute to the problem) or because you're sailing at an extreme angle of heel (and I've never seen this location submerged on a sailing 27).
Your present setup is discharging (if at all) much closer to the waterline and is thus much more prone to siphoning. Also, if the drain gets blocked, your bilge water is eventually going to overflow the sink (yuck).
If I were you, I'd copy Bob's location.
David Weatherston
"Towser"
C&C 27 Mk IV
Locating a depth transducer in the engine space may be all right for fish-finding at low speeds, but would not be a good idea for a speed unit because there is turbulence aft of the keel that will affect the accuracy of the speed and log readings. The nature of the turbulence is going to change depending on variables such as speed, leeway, etc., so your speed and log outputs will be utterly unreliable.
The dinette's forward seat locker (the "traditional location" noted in an earlier post) isn't perfect, but it's far enough forward that the plume of turbulence off the keel isn't going to be a major factor.
For myself, I can't see the virtue in a shorter wiring run since the instruments that most people have (Autohelm/Raymarine) have a long cable that you're not supposed to shorten. There is no question of needing to run cables through the bilge in a 27 -- there is an easily accessible cable path from the dinette's forward seat locker up to the edge of the liner and then aft to the rear of the coachroof.
David Weatherston
"Towser"
C&C 27 Mk IV