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Checked 8 different 27's in our yard yesterday, Marks II, III and IV. Seven of them had visible set-screws, there were none visible on the 8th boat.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Checked 8 different 27's in our yard yesterday, Marks II, III and IV. Seven of them had visible set-screws, there were none visible on the 8th boat.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Sorry, somehow I dropped out of this thread and missed replying to earlier questions. When I apply the Sure-Step, I essentially treat it the same as a hull wax. That is, I apply the paste with a damp cotton cloth, let it dry to a haze and then buff it with a dry cotton cloth or terry-towel. For my nicely worn C&C non-skid, this works quite well. I suspect that the recommendation for a brush is probably oriented towards boats which have "diamond-pattern" non-skid (like on my cabin sole), so that the bristles will get the wax get down between the peaks of the diamonds in the non-skid areas.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey Mike,
The Atomic Four was produced from 1947 to 1984. There were 3 different models of water pump used, but for the last 12 years of production all of the water pumps were supplied by Oberdorfer. If your boat is from 1976 then the water pump is an Oberdorfer, unless some previous owner changed it. If you are ordering replacement impellers, make sure that you buy a spare at the same time, to carry on-board. I also recommend the Speed-Seal cover plate for the back of the pump. Fiddling with the screws while crammed head-down in the locker is a major pain. When I installed electronic ignition on Carriden (a 1980 boat), I used the "Pertronix Ignitor Delco 4 cylinder, Model No. 1146A" from Moyer. This unit has been reliable and the engine has had no ignition issues in the 2 seasons since installation. The Atomic Four is a great engine, simple and reliable. All of the issues which I have had over the past 7 seasons have turned out to be fuel feed issues and not a problem with the engine itself. However, those fuel feed issues can be a bugger to track down . . .
Good luck and welcome to the fraternity.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey Tom, welcome to the fraternity. With a folding prop, vibration often occurs when one of the blades is reluctant to unfold, assuming that the blades are not geared to each other. If Aries is out of the water then check that both blades are moving freely. This sort of vibration sometimes happens with Carriden's Martec folding prop and the solution is to throttle down to idle, put the gearbox into reverse and then kick the throttle up. This usually works in getting both blades to unfold and then I can return to forward gear. Other potential sources of vibration can be a bent propeller shaft or a worn-out cutless bearing, which would allow the shaft to vibrate as it turns. There may be issues in the engine that could cause such a vibration, perhaps a snapped connecting rod or some such, but I have never heard any Atomic IV owner complain of encountering such a problem. It is almost invariably the prop or the prop shaft, or possibly a shaft alignment issue.
Best of luck,
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Groco, Todd, Moeller, Ronco and Vetus all make replacement rigid tanks. I have also had considerable success with a Vetus flexible holding tank, which I used for 2 decades in my C&C 25. You have to properly secure it so that it won't shift around, but we never had any problems with odors or leakage. The advantage is that the flexible tanks come in various sizes and can be fit into odd-shaped lockers or corners. Western Marine is a Canadian distributor for Groco tanks and your local retailer can order from them. Jamestown Distributors (www.jamestowndistributors.com) displays a large selection of tanks from several manufacturers.
Be careful of changing the tank location as that will affect the balance of the boat, taking it away from the original design specs.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
I usually keep a large, plastic popcorn bucket on board which has a large hole cut in the bottom. This fits over the winch in case I have to strip and service one while on the water. Although not foolproof, it does increase the likelihood that any flying pawls or springs will be trapped before they fly over the toerail.
Neither my Barients nor my Lewmars require me to unbolt them from the deck for full servicing, thank goodness.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
I managed to remove and replace my tank without having to cut anything. Once the hoses were off I could rotate the tank onto its side and it would then fit through the existing opening for the cockpit locker. There was a certain amount of wiggling involved getting around the hose barbs on the top of the tank, but it really wasn't any problem. I have one of the rectangular Mirax tanks in Carriden.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Jamie, this sounds like a C&C 25 Mk. 1. I had one for 19 years before moving up to my 27 and it was a great boat. Simple and sea-kindly, and a joy to sail.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
I have used Aurora's SureStep for years on my deck and I recommend it whole-heartedly. By sealing up the surface of the gelcoat, it makes the whole thing much easier to keep clean. Also, the claimed effects of improved traction appear to work quite well. However, I have had trouble sourcing the stuff lately.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Tim. When I first got Carriden, I installed a 4:1 internal outhaul using double blocks and it was acceptable. However, I was never happy with the amount of internal resistance arising out of the drag of 4 lengths of line inside the boom. This resistance greatly increased the difficulty of adjusting and releasing the outhaul. A couple of seasons ago, I bit the bullet and replaced my original internal outhaul with another setup that provided a 4:1 purchase using a cascading system with wire rope on single blocks. This required careful measurements to ensure the maximum range of outhaul movement within the limited movement of the wire rope between the bottom of the gooseneck casting and the base of the mast. The wire rope comes out of the bottom of the boom end-casting at the gooseneck and is connected to a dacron line which goes through a block at the base of the mast and then back to the cockpit along the cabin-top, which allows for easy adjustment on any point of sail.
This new system functions much better and the internal resistance has been pretty much eliminated. It is now easy to "dial in" a specific amount of outhaul tension and adjustment under load, which used to be virtually impossible, is now easy. So, I heartily recommend using a cascading system with single blocks.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey Stéphane, it sounds like you are planning something exciting. You can get an estimate of your "Angle of Vanishing Stability" from US Sailings calculator, found at:
http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__avs.htm
However, this is only an estimate and may not be adequate for your purposes. I keep coming up with numbers between 120 degrees and 127 degrees. I would love to see some numbers calculated by a proper naval architect, which we could then hopefully post with our basic statistics on the "Evolution of the 27" page. I would be interested to know what the impact is of the Mk III's (and Mk IV's) having a keel which is not only deeper, but which was also reshaped to move more of the weight towards the bottom of the keel. When I walk through our boatyard, the Mk. II keels appear to have a uniform maximum thickness through the whole vertical range of the keel, while the later keels noticeably "bulge out" towards the bottom and are more slender up near the root. If this is correct, and not just my aging eyes, then it was undoubtedly done to offset the impact of reducing the total keel weight in the later marks.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Stéphane,
Are you talking about tweakers, used to pull the spinnaker guy line into the toerail at a midships position?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Amen to that David. I still monitor SA because they do actually come up with real news from time to time, occasionally offer up a good video clip and, best of all, sometimes feature really stupendous sailing pics from the likes of Carlo Borlenghi. On the other hand, their disdain for anything under $80K or 50 ft., unless it is equipped with foils, drives me crazy. This applies to most of the magazines too, which I now collectively refer to as "boat porn". I reserve my dollars for "Good Old Boat" and "Gam" which offer feature articles and discussions of interest to the average guy. Some of the British magazines are also quite good, just terribly pricey on this side of the pond. I was particularly incensed by one article on SA which discussed hauling a "4-knot shitbox" through some passes in the Rockies to an inland lake. The accompanying photos revealed the "shitbox" in question to be a decent-looking C&C 27. As a point of interest, I have attained sustained speeds of more than 7.5 knots and have surfed Carriden at over 10 knots (according to the Garmin GPS).
I find it especially ironic when they start to blather on about the need to save sailing, while dissing any working stiff who scrimps to keep his classic plastic afloat. Without this site, and other similar owners' association sites, we regular guys would have a far tougher time of it than we already do. So, let's be patient with each other, supportive of the newbies, and work at keeping our aging mistresses floating and functional. As a passing point of interest, the January 2011 issue of "Good Old Boat" has an excellent article about rebuilding an Atomic 4. It was written by Rob Mazza, who has a long association with C&C.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Dana.
I take it that you are referring to the aft settee on the port side and whether or not you should create a limber hole between the seat and the bilge. In the first year that I had Carriden, I too had problems with water accumulation under this seat. However, this was not the result of condensation. Instead, it appeared to be the result of having some water accumulation in the bilge. When the boat heeled over far enough to port (we sometimes push her hard when racing), the water would run from the bilge underneath the fiberglas liner that forms the foot well under the table, or through the locker under the forward settee, and pool on the port side of the hull. As the boat would come back upright, some of this water would drain into the compartment under the aft settee and be unable to drain back into the bilge.
My solution to the problem had two parts: first, I installed an electric bilge pump to make sure that the amount of water in the bilge is kept to an absolute minimum. The more water there is in the bilge, the less you have to heel for the problem to occur. Second, I did successfully open up a limber hole in the forward inboard corner of the compartment under the settee, using a Dremel rotary tool. If you reach into the bilge and feel under the floorboards towards the corner of the settee, you should find that there is filler, and possibly some foam, that C&C used to bed the cabin liner to the inside of the hull. This filler is the substance which is sealing up the bottom of your locker. By feel, you should be able to determine how much clearance there is between the bottom of the liner and the inside of the hull. In Carriden's case, there was over an inch of room to work with. Using the rotary tool on the inside of the locker, I carefully ground away at the filler, making VERY sure that I stayed away from grinding into the fiberglas of the hull itself. Eventually, I succeeded in opening up a limber hole of 1/2-inch to 3/4-inch diameter, which now allows the locker to drain into the bilge. There have been no further problems with water in the locker.
The real trick here is to proceed slowly with opening up the hole, making sure that you neither grind into the hull nor through the cabin liner which forms the base of the settee and the cabin sole. Otherwise it is a fairly simple job, it's just intimidating because of the proximity to the hull and potential danger to hull integrity. Good luck!
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
I just checked my manual for the Mk III / Mk IV 27. The specifications page for running rigging is dated June 30th, 1976 and specifies 3/8-inch yacht braid for all halyards. In fact, everything is 3/8-inch with just a few exceptions:
Genoa Sheets: 1/2-inch
Cunningham: 1/4-inch
Outhaul, Topping Lift: 1/8-inch
All of these lines have been designated as "YB" (Yacht Braid) in the manual, but there are also wire specifications for the Main Halyard, Genoa Halyard and Topping Lift.
Interestingly, my original Spinnaker Halyard was 7/16-inch, but I relegated it to being a backup halyard because it binds too much going through all of the sheaves. A 3/8-inch Dacron double-braid is perfectly acceptable for the spinnaker halyard, as an inch or two of stretch at the the masthead makes no perceptible difference to performance and the benefits of a small amount of stretch under shock-loading have already been mentioned.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Chris,
Carriden came with an Origo inset into the counter instead of one of the old Kenyon stoves. Unfortunately, gimbals are not really an option, as you would have to install raised mountings and cut away portions of the counter and cabinet face in order to give clearance for swinging. Instead, I have a small Forespar Mini-Galley which runs off of portable propane tanks (the same ones as my Bar-B-Q) and is fully gimballed. This has a detachable mount on the bulkhead facing the companion-way stairs and is only in place when in use. It is good for making coffee, tea, soup, chili, etc. while under way and was my only method for cooking on last years Lake Ontario 300 race.
We use the Origo extensively while cruising, as it works beautifully while in a slip or riding quietly at anchor. However, for under-way work the Mini-Galley is faster and much easier to live with. Plus, you can monitor it from the cockpit and keep an eye on your coffee percolator. This solution has been working for me on Carriden for the last 6 seasons and a similar solution worked for many years on my C&C 25.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
I know that conventional wisdom holds that the hulls of C&C 27's are all solid fiberglass, without any coring. As far as balsa core goes, this is apparently true. However, after removing interior panels in Carriden and exposing the inside of the hull fiberglass, I realized that I was seeing what did in fact appear to be a filler material used to bulk up the laminate along the sides of the hull. This was noticeable behind the port-side bulkhead (which supports the table) and behind the head cabinetry. This material looks very much like Lantor Coremat (see www.lantor.nl/index.php/id_structuur/10598/coremat.html). Coremat is itself a non-woven polyester fabric containing microspheres, which adds bulk and rigidity to large panels and helps prevent "print-through" where bulkheads are tabbed to the hull, etc. It comes in thicknesses from 1 mm to 10 mm (the one that I was seeing would not have been more than 2 or 3 mm thick). Since it is also polyester and glass, it is not subject to rot the way that balsa coring is and, if properly impregnated with resin, not subject to water penetration. Now Carriden was built in 1980 and as such may have benefited from the improvements in fiberglass moulding technology which were coming fast and furious in those heady days. I found a similar layup structure in a 1987 Beneteau 23.5 which I was working on.
Has anybody else out there found something similar in their boats, or does anybody have some solid information from people who actually worked on building the boats?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
The Whale Angled Freshwater Pump was not a particularly great solution in 1975 and 35 years have not improved it. Even in '75, it was past being state of the art and we now have much better choices available, including the Whale Flipper freshwater pump. In my last 2 C&C's, one of my first actions was to replace the old angled handpumps. In my case, I opted for Whale footpumps, which actually leave my hands free for washing, etc. However, for about the same money you can now go electric if you want. If you decide to go with footpumps, beware the cheap Chinese knockoffs.
So, my recommendation is to ditch the old pump and replace it with something more functional. I know that this is a bit more expensive, but it is a one-time cost and your satisfaction in using will more than outweigh the hit to your bank account. If you really need to economize, you can contact Whale at www.whalepumps.com to see if they still offer rebuild kits, but my recollection is that they do not. Still, the Irish do like to cling to tradition. . . When I last rebuilt an angled pump 23 years ago, it used cork and rubber seals, not o-rings. Has yours been updated?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
[Further to Marcus' comments about Chinese knockoffs, please read <a href="http://www.cc27association.com/fixes/imitations/imitations.html">this page</a>. It deals principally with knockoff rigging parts, but goes on to address other items and issues. - Admin]
Hey there Joe,
I am 6 foot and my head rubs along the top of the headliner in the centre of the cabin on my Mk. 3. Of course, I cannot stand up straight in the head. Under the sliding hatch, I am free and clear, but I think that even there you will probably have to bend your neck. My main beef is that I really would like the V-berth to be about 2 inches longer. Curiously, my old C&C 25 had longer berths than the 27 does.
Since you are presumably going ocean sailing, have you considered a C&C 30 Mk. 1? It has a bit more headroom and the extra beam and weight will probably generate a more comfortable ride out on the big blue. I sail the Great Lakes and my Mk. 3 is excellent for the light airs here, but if I were on the ocean I would probably have opted for a 30. Same basic layout, but a higher level of amenities and storage and, nowadays, not much difference in price.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Judging by the lower stays, she appears to be a Mk II. The few Mark I's built had single lower stays, like a C&C 30 Mk I.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hello Bill,
I'm going to weigh in with an unsolicited opinion which is probably worth exactly what you are paying for it. Your question implies that you are thinking of dispensing with traditional instruments, such as the knotmeter and depthsounder, in order to rely entirely on a GPS for your navigation. I would strongly urge you to reconsider this. The world of GPS is not entirely under your control, whereas your traditional instruments are. The Americans can at any time degrade the accuracy of the GPS system, or even turn it off entirely. Mother Nature may find ways to interfere with GPS signals. I realize that this is as unlikely as, for instance, the Americans simultaneously shutting down every airport in the country. Then again, that did happen on 9/11 and is happening now across Europe, because of volcanic activity.
Very recently, there was also a well-publicized incident of an Australian maxi-boat racer, PriceWaterhouseCoopers, which drove itself ashore on a rocky island while depending entirely on GPS for navigation. Two crew members died. The Cruising Yacht Club of Australia determined that the proximate cause of the wreck was that the skipper was relying completely on a GPS unit which, due to time of day and reduced coverage, was inaccurate by at least 100 metres. Full story at http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/drowned-sailors-gps-at-least-100m-out/story-e6frfku0-1225834344457.
That said, I have a Garmin GPS unit mounted on my binnacle and it is interfaced to my autohelm. On one test run, the unit brought Carriden right into the harbour mouth without my needing to touch the helm. I also navigate the entire length of Lake Ontario relying purely on the positioning and charting capabilities of my GPS. However, I would never give up my ability to fall back on my old-fashioned instruments, paper charts and dead reckoning skills, because Murphy and his law are always waiting. I once had a GPS unit rendered unusable because a crew member lost his balance and smashed the antenna. Most modern GPS units are MilSpec waterproof and have no problem being mounted outside in the cockpit while they are being used. So, I heartily endorse the mounting and use of a GPS unit. Just, please, don't succumb to the modern notion that you can safely venture into the wilderness while being entirely dependent on advanced technology.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Do you have inboard tracks yet? These can make a real difference with pointing. Carriden's tracks run from right aft, by the primary winches, all the way forward to just aft of, and slightly outboard of, the centre chainplate. They pass inboard of the aft chainplate and are 8 ft long, anchored from below with oversize fender washers which have been inset through the headliner right to the underside of the deck itself. And yes, it was a long tedious, dusty and icky job. Especially potting the holes (drill and fill) in the deck for each bolt. However, it has made a significant improvement in pointing, especially with the No. 2 and the working jib. My track layout most resembles that of Yogi Bear in the Black Arts section, which you can see at
http://www.cc27association.com/fixes/decktracks/source/trackyogi2.html
However, Carriden's tracks are completely straight and continue forward a few more inches than Yogi Bear's do.
The forestay extrusions for both the Harken and the Furlex are twin-groove extrusions, so that comes with the furling unit. Your masthead casting should at least have a spot for a second halyard sheave at the front edge, even if a sheave is not actually present. I actually have 2 genoa halyards and 2 spinnaker halyards, but that is overkill for anything short of serious racing.
You may not have the fleet out there, but you sure do have the location. My sister-in-law used to tease me by calling up on New Year's Day and telling me that she was sitting on her porch in Victoria and watching the sailboats go by. She is a cruel woman.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hello again Stephane. If your current genoa is an all-Dacron unit, then the sailmaker should have no trouble setting it up for roller furling. It is primarily a matter of removing the hanks and replacing them with the proper size luff tape, then adding a UV protective strip along the leech and the foot. Here on Lake Ontario, we typically race PHRF and that means that I limit my largest racing genoa to a 153%, to avoid an extra handicap. My number 2 is about 130% and my working jib is, of course, only a 100%. I also carry a storm jib, which is a handkerchief, in order to meet requirements for distance races. It has yet to be used outside of a test hoist.
I do not remove the furling drum when using my racing genoa. I just tack the sail down to the bow casting and let it bend around the drum. This creates a slight wrinkle at the tack of the sail, but not enough to trouble us. When flying the number 2, I may hank it on to the top of the drum, if I think that there is any chance that I would want to furl it. Otherwise, it too goes on to the bow casting. For the working jib, I always hank it on to the top of the furling drum, as this sets up the sheeting angle to allow the sheets to come down to the inboard tracks, which vastly improves pointing.
One thing which I should mention: I use two distinct genoa halyards. The wire/rope halyard is used for the racing genoa, as it allows the most precise control of luff tension. This line leads directly to the port-side sheave at the top of the mast and trying to furl while using this halyard leads to problems with the halyard wrapping around the forestay extrusion near the top of the mast. My second halyard is a kevlar-core line which runs out of the starboard masthead sheave and then straight down about 4 inches and through a Schaefer halyard restrainer. The restrainer prevents it from wrapping around the forestay when furling, by separating the halyard from the axis of the forestay extrusion. However, the presence of the halyard restrainer prevents this particular line from being able to achieve a properly tensioned full hoist with the racing genoa. Therefore, this second halyard is reserved for the cruising genoa and for implementing headsail changes while racing.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Stephane. Using roller furling does not eliminate your ability to use the right size headsail for any given wind condition, it just gives you more options. The two top furling systems are the Harken and the Selden Furlex, both of which combine a twin-blade foil system with roller-furling capability. Both have been used by round-the-world racers in extreme conditions. My boat, Carriden, has used a Harken system for many years. While racing, we usually bypass the furling function in order to fly our deck-sweeper genoa and simply use the twin-foil aspect of the furling extrusion to allow for headsail changes. When cruising, I load on the cruising genoa and enjoy the simplicity of simply furling and unfurling without having to run around the foredeck. We occasionally get blasted by some serious line squalls here on the Great Lakes; last summer we had one that jumped from 5 knots to 50 knots in a matter of seconds. At such a moment, it is a great relief to be able to simply roll the sail up and stop worrying about having it or crew up on the foredeck.
I am a great believer in flying the right-size sail for any given condition and, even though equipped with roller furling, I carry a full inventory of headsails. Especially for racing, having the right headsail with the right shape makes a big difference to performance. However, I really appreciate the extra options which roller furling gives me, especially when I am not racing. Further, the twin-foil headstay does provide a cleaner leading edge for performance. Good roller furling is one of those rare situations which pretty much allows you to have your cake and eat it too.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario