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thanks to David and Mike for the thoughtful and considerate replies. I will likely not be the owner of this boat. I'd like to help the present owner find a more suitable buyer and have been searching in vain for suitable online selling sites. Boatworld.com isn't up and running yet and the others I've found seem mostly about powerboats and limited even then. Any sites I've missed that people here know about and/or recommend?
Thanks again for all the help here. It really made a difference in my making a decision about the boat. I wish I were the kind of guy who loves to restore things but my mechanical interests are more of the initial install variety and I'm particularly bad at repetitive motions and long term projects. This boat will be great for someone, just not me.
There appear to be very few of the 984 27's for sale, especially around NY. Saw one advertised in Buffalo for about $9000 US and yet there's a '75 for sale on Long Island for $19000. That can't be in the right ball park, can it?
By the way, the boat I've described is going for under $3000, with, in another week, an overhauled engine and there dock priveleges go with it for another $1600 for the whole summer season. That's very cheap around here for 27ft. Considering that the hull was completely resurfaced 5 years ago and is in perfect condition (done for some bubbles, no trauma) this is probably a great deal for someone with interest and ability in fiberglass deck work. Maybe someone in the Northeast might be interested.
Anyway, thanks again for everything.
Steve
If there is any interest in the boat I will act as contact for the owner: steve@slowy.com
Got a survey of the boat I have been writing about-- '71 Mk I. Good news is that hull and keel are OK. Mast step and supports OK; standing rigging OK except wobbly spreaders as I'd already written.
Rest of news wasn't so good. Lots of delamination of side deck, esp. around chainplates. (Tapping with a hammer was much more accurate than my tapping by hand-- something I'd picked up in medical practice.) Wet bulkheads around chainplates but taps solid. He says boat will never be dry unless much of deck is redone (I've seen the photos in Black Arts)-- and he thought that wasn't worth the $$. None of the deck is in danger of collapsing but will never be stable enough to allow bedding to remain intact.
The crack at the front of the rudder which I'd seen but not written about here was, according to him, the most worrisome. There was rust on the area of the rudder below the crack and he said this was due to corrosion of the tangs in the rudder which were not stainless. He said this set up the possibility of rudder failure/breakage.
All of the gate valves on thru-hulls are frozen ( which I already knew) and need replacing.
He didn't think the chainplates would go in usual weather in Long Island Sound but was concerned about the gales we get-- and we do get those. Suggested aluminum backing plates that would incorporate not only the present chainplate bolt positions but also extending lower into dry bulkhead below where the chainplates now bolt.
He thought the rudder could be taken apart, tangs rewelded, and skin replaced. (I know about the Mk II rudder available in Ontario. Had a very nice chat with the owner yesterday after the survey. My best to you, Bob. Maybe will actually try to get that rudder if things work out otherwise with the boat.)
The cabin top was actually in pretty good condition considering some leaks at the hand rails and the attaching hardware for the dodger.
The engine is in the process of having a major overhaul (starter, alternator, etc.-- not work on the block). I'm assuming from what the mechanic said that it'd be in good working order when he finished and should last a few years until the side plate became an issue.
I am in a position where I have some choice as to whether or not to keep the boat; if I kept it I could also donate it or sell it to someone with more experience and interest in major boat repair than I have. When I'm on the boat I'm in love with her and with sailing. When I am off the boat I wonder if I'm out of my mind to even consider sailing something with potential failures in its rudder and chainplates/bulkheads. [Of course being in love and being out of one's mind are by no means mutually exclusive states of (un)consciousness.]
What I'd like, if it can be given, is some advice about what others would do with a boat like this. Not even sure what questions to ask and I realize I'm only giving a partial picture of what's going on. Still, any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Steve
Appreciate the comprehensive reply and the very appropriate advice about sailing more, worrying less. The problem is that this boat was in the water and unattended for five years, so I wnat just to make sure that the mast doesn't come down on a windy day and that the through the hulls are as safe as I can get them. Hard to enjoy sailing when not sure that the boat is sound.
>ill usually cause some staining or discoloration<
If you mean that water entry would discolor the bulkhead, that has happened. And the veneer was wet on the port side after the last big rain Saturday-- part of that veneer inboard and above the chainplates is somewhat warped. I don't know if you read my original post when I mentioned that there was moss growing between the port cover plate and the deck. Yeah, it's been wet. How the bulkhead has fared is still unknown. It taps out ok but. . . . That's why I'm trying to get a surveyor and/or a fiberglass guy.
There is also a small (6-8") area of what I believe is early delamination of the deck on the starboard side (the side that appears drier inside). That area is forward and outboard of where the chainplate enters the deck. The area around the chainplate seems firm. The outboard, forward screw for that starboard cover plate is missing (just noted that yesterday) and I assume it's been missing for quite a while. Might account for the deck issue.
I do not believe the chainplate bolt holes have elongated.
So, It seems that I might have some worrying and work to do no matter how much I'd like to get in the maiden sail.
The stanchion bases actually look and tap ok, at least to my eye and ear but I hadn't even visualized the toe rail for anchor points. A-duh. Not used to having that kind of toe rail and it didn't even show up in my mental picture as I tried to work the issue out at home. And I was trying to think of the most outboard achor points, too. Oh, well.
Once again, David, I really appreciate the help and perspective.
Steve
>That should clarify the use of the term<
Thanks. Got the drill-fill-drill concept. Thought you were referring to still another step.
Steve
OK, I think I've read what I can, including West System's site and what I could find in Epoxyworks.
Writing in regard to a '71 Mark I. I began the search for a licensed surveyor today but still would like to know more about the issue. What I still am not clear on is:
Is the bulkhead's cross section essentially the same as that of the deck: i.e., balsa sandwiched between two layers of glass?
Is the wood finishing on the aft side of the bulkhead solely ornamental?
There are no backing plates for the chainplate nuts. Needed? Recommended? If large washers will do, how large?
The present nuts and washers make small indents in what appears to be a reinforcing rectangle of unfinished glass on the fore side of the bulkhead; the wood on the aft side is slightly indented but intact. Normal? (There's no evidence that I can see that the bolt holes have enlarged on either side and no cracks in the finished wood.)
Can one see damage to the portion of the bulkhead above the chainplate bolt holes after removing cover plates +/- chainplates? If not, how does on make that determination?
Last, hopefully: I am thinking one can work on chainplates one side at a time without unstepping the mast. Am I correct in that? And, if so, what are the safest ways of securing the mast on the side that will be loosened/removed? Can stanchion bases (assuming intact and I think mine are) be used in conjunction with halyards to stabilize mast?
Thanks
when you say you sealed the circumference with epoxy, do you mean that the epoxy is put around the holes on the surface of the deck or inside the hole itself?
Steve
David
Thanks for the guide. Will follow. I'd previously read the Genoa Track portions of Black Art and decided to hold off on that for now-- though I've never had a boat without genny tracks and I'll see how I get used to using snatch blocks on the toe rails. Perhaps working with the balsa on the rails will encourage me to try the tracks.
By mentioning the genoa track articles did you mean that when you put the handrails on "for real" you used the drill-fill-drill method? If so, did you enlarge the present screw holes for the rails as mentioned for attaching tracks?
Also, (a) is there a silicon based product that will work adequately here and (b) what do you use for bedding other deck mounted fittings-- stanchions, anchor grips? Chainplates?
I'll be looking for someone in the yard who has a moisture meter though I was interested to read this article regarding their reliability: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/moisture_meters.htm
Thanks again.
Also thanks for alleviating my worries about overuse of the forum. Fortunately, I hadn't yet thought of the schooner rig option and had already worked out how to retrofit the outriggers onto the deck.
Steve
First, I just want to say that, being a very new owner of a very old boat (and one which had been in water, unused, for five years) I have all sorts of questions. Not sure how to put this but I don't want to abuse the privilege of being a member here. So, if I ask too many questions please, someone, let me know. Really.
That said, right before I bought the boat all the handrails had been taken off to refinish the teak, then replaced. They now leak. Might have leaked before but I've got to redo them, regardless. I've read the back threads here on handrails. It seems a relatively simple procedure but was wondering if there were tricks (black art) to assure dry fit and, particularly, what sort of bedding/caulking material people prefer, for this and other applications-- favorite brands, for example.
Was also wondering-- having read enough about the balsa core issue with the decks both on this site and elsewhere to be concerned about it-- how long does a leak need to go on before balsa rot occurs? If that sort of thing can even be known. Also, if there's been a leak should the area be left open to air out rather than trapping water in the balsa?
Thanks
Steve
Kenny
Thanks for replying. I'll be sailing out of Rye. Was looking for people with whom to talk sailing in the Sound. If that's ok with you here's my e-mail: steve@slowy.com If not, have a great sailing season.
Thanks again for the reply.
Steve
Was wondering if there were any assoc members with a 27 in the NYC area.
Steve
taking a better look at innards on the '71 27. There are two vents on the transom and two vent hoses. There is one blower-- it appears fairly new-- and only the starboard vent hose is connected to the blower which then has tubing that goes to the starboard vent; the open end of that starboard hose lies at the deepest part of the boat under the gas tank. The port side hose simply goes from the area of the motor on the port side to the port vent on the transom. Is this standard? Does that port hose serve any purpose and, if not, would it be advantageous to T-connect it to the starboard hose?
P.S. added after a bit of thought-- is the port tubing meant to draw air *in* rather than exhaust? Perhaps to stir up gas fumes that sank to the bottom on the port side and allow them to be exhausted by the starboard exhaust?
thanks
Steve
>The word 'unsafe', however, suggests that there is merely a possibility of either hurting someone or damaging something; 'dangerous' or perhaps 'criminally negligent' are closer the mark.<
Ah, a man who understands the art and beauty of the sardonic. As a native NY'er it's like music to me. I get it: use crane, bridge, or VTOL craft for vertical lift. Am actually glad to be warned away from the manual route since all my visualizations of the process seemed unstable and fraught with danger, if not criminality-- despite pictures of manual mast removal on the 'net.
Was also wondering if anyone had schematics or pictures of Mark I tall rig spreaders at the mast. I've searched the forums and not found that, though I have seen the "automobile radiator hose" fixes.
Regardless, thanks again David
Steve
many thanks for the reply. Actually, I realized my question really was whether or not this could be done without a crane or other lifting device and was logging back in to make that distinction. Had been trying to visualize how to handle the torque and avoid some adverse event(s) once the mast had been taken back far enough for the foot to come loose. (Have seen online pictures of doing this with smaller boats and smaller masts, no crane.) It seems simple enough with a crane and unsafe without one, regardless of how much help is available. Is that correct? No crane available where I presently am so I might need to do everything else, get it in the water and then get to someplace that can handle the un- and re-masting while in the water.
Thanks again
Steve
Hello to all
Yesterday I bought the '71 Mark I I've written about. (Yes, cc27 Assoc. membership application goes in the mail tomorrow.) I just bought has, I believe, the wobbly spreader issue already discussed here while back, plus the boat was out of use for several years, so I'm going to recheck all rigging and look for automobile radiator hose. Despite 10 years or so of sailboat ownership I never had to unstep a mast. Was wondering if this (and restepping) is a job requiring more than two people/men and, in general how difficult it is-- and if there are any good how-to manuals, articles. I've tuned masts but somehow never had to unstep one. Also wondering if there's a standard (backward) rake on the mast for this particular boat. Any info/experience would be appreciated. Anyone know the weight of the mast, without boom or shrouds?
Thanks
Steve
Moyer was as nice and helpful as advertised. He explained that the water jacket side plate isn't coated inside so does, indeed, corrode (thin) over time. He carries them in regular and stainless (under $100 or so for the complete assembly, slightly more in stainless) as well as the bolt replacement kits. He would not, however, specifically answer as to when or if that plate should be removed as a precaution before it failed. It seems like a relatively easy repair (seems is the key word) assuming nuts can be removed and thread stripping avoided. I assume there is a standard draining procedure though I am completely new to this sort of engine. I might ask my mechanic if he thinks it's worth the expense to replace the plate.
Was wondering if anyone with an older boat has had experience with this issue (again, the 27 in question is a '71 with what I believe is the original A4)
Also was wondering if there is some kind of user manual. The manual on Moyer's site seems to be more of a service and repair rather than a user manual-- things like hints for safe and reliable starting, what to watch for, use of gauges, transmission, etc. This is my first boat with an inboard and it's a bit nervous making especially with the stores that go around about gas engines. Any advice on this would be appreicated. Sorry if these questions are too newbie but, on inboards, I be newbie.
thanks again to all for the great help to date.
Steve
Hi all
The engine guy finally got to see the 1971 Mark I I've been considering buying and said it required about $700-- new or rebuilt, starter motor, alternator, distributor, carburetor, tune up, drain gas tank. Seems a bit high but decided to do it. He said the engine should last a few more years and when I asked what would stop it from lasting he said something about corrosion, over time, of a side water panel or plate. He said that plate looked OK from the outside. Any ideas what he was talking about? Secondarily, is the quoted price reasonable for those repairs.
Thanks
thanks Mike and Ralph
Yes, Mike, the boom has roller reefing. I should have realized that was why no permanent vang attachment to the boom though I think my Ranger 26 had both.
There are no blocks at the base of the mast so I suppose I'll need to drill into the deck and add some.
If anyone has photos of the fair leads/blocks on the cabin top of their boat I'd love to see them.
Thanks again for the info.
Steve
am looking at buying a '71 Mark I. It's been a while since I owned a boat but the rigging on this boat seems odd to me and I wondered if I could get some info on how others have their boats rigged and what was standard. Perhaps there are rigging diagrams available. I'm searching the web without much success. The former owner is not available to answer questions regarding the boat.
My main questions, at present, are about the jib and main halyards. There is only one winch on the mast, on the starboard side, and it would seem to be for the jib since the mast-internal jib halyard is on starboard. There are no winches on the cabin top though there are cleats at the aft end of the cabin top, one to each side of the companion way which I'd assume were for tying off the main and jib halyards. But there are no fair leads at the bottom of the mast that would allow safe and easy leading of the halyards back toward the cockpit.
Bottom line question is whether it is usual not to have a mail halyard winch and whether there is a standard way to run both halyards to where they can be handled from the cockpit?
A secondary question regards the boomvang. This boat does not seem to have one (even one that slides onto the boom) or even have connecting points for one at the base of the mast or on the boom. Do people really sail without one? Is there an easy/standard way to add one.
Thanks
Steve
Considering buying a 1971 27. Has had water in the cabin-- possible damage to the atomic 4. Wondering what my options are if the motor isn't functional. Is it possible/reasonable to consider putting a bracket on the transom and using an outboard? If so, any recommendations about brackets, size of outboard? I know this is an unaesthetic question but would appreciate any advice. Also, any info on approx. cost of replacing an engine.
Thanks
Steve Lowy
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