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Hi Ronan,
Back on Carriden we did something similar to Tal's setup. There was one set of blocks on the toerail by the midships stanchion and a second set of blocks on the toerail by the cleats forward of the primary winch. On each side was a fairly short tweaker line with a block spliced into the end of it, which the spinnaker sheets ran through. The tweaker line would be run through the block at the midships stanchion, then brought back to the aft block near the primary winch, and then fastened to the cleat just forward of the primary winch. On the sheet side, the tweaker line would be allowed to run free (at least to the stopper knot in the end of the line). On the guy line, the tweaker would be pulled tight, with the riding block right down to the toerail, at the point of widest beam on the boat. This gave optimum purchase and maximum leverage for cranking back the spinnaker pole. Prior to gybing, the tweaker on the sheet would be pulled in tight and then the pole brought across the foretriangle to the new windward side, after which the tweaker on the newly established spinnaker sheet would be allowed to run free. Nobody had to leave the cockpit for this.
This arrangement served us well for many years and eliminated any strain being placed on the stanchions or lifelines. Also it was easy to remove the tweaker lines, leaving the blocks in place on the toerail, when racing was done and we were shifting back to pleasure-sailing mode. Used a red line for the port tweaker, green for the starboard, to differentiate them from the white sheet lines.
Wishing you fair winds and calm seas,
Hey David,
Thanks for all of the support and good ideas over the years. It was a real pleasure to meet both you and Towser in the flesh, so to speak, a couple of years ago.
I wouldn't want to suggest that losing the site is driving me right out of C&C 27's, but I have just posted a For Sale notice on Carriden in the forum. Just saying . . .
Many thanks, may you always find fair winds and calm seas!
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
As a last gasp at finding help in the forum, do you or anyone you know want to purchase a turnkey, ready-to-sail C&C 27?
Our beloved Carriden, much enhanced and upgraded over the years, is now up for sale. With retirement looming, the Admiral wants something a little larger, with more room for entertaining and cruising paraphernalia. She (the boat, not the Admiral) is in flawless condition, rigged for comfortable racing or cruising, with too many upgrades to mention. New B&G instruments and an electrical system you can only dream of. Located on the shores of Lake Ontario, in Oakville.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
John, someone else's measurements are not likely to do you much good. Although these boats come out of the same molds and are in theory exactly the same, the actual truth is that each boat is a unique individual. Bulkhead placement varies slightly from boat to boat, the exact size and placement of the support beam varies, etc. So, the measurements of my 27 Mk III will be at least several fractions of an inch off of the proper measurements for your boat.
A number of years ago, I had to replace the compression post in Carriden, because the original laminated plywood post had rotted at the bottom. Like you, I used a jack to push up the support beam across the top of the cabin. When I had the support beam completely straight, I measured the distance from the cabin sole to the underside of the support beam and the deckhead beneath the tabernacle. I managed to source a piece of solid teak from Exotic Woods in Burlington, which I then cut and shaped to my exact measurements, mimicking the general shape and profile of the original post. I then slipped it into place, tapping it into final position because I had cut it to be a snug fit. This post has served me for over a dozen years now without any problems.
The reason that the original post had rotted was that water which came in through the forehatch, or was spilled in the head, would sit on the cabin sole, having no suitable drainage because it was blocked by the teak sole in the main cabin. To eliminate this problem, I created a small limber hole in the bottom of the main bulkhead, more or less on the centre-line of the boat. I coated the insides of this limber hole with epoxy so that water could not penetrate the bulkhead itself. Water now drains through the limber hole into the locker under the forward port settee, where it then has a clear and straight path into the bilge. Problem solved. I also cut away the portion of the teak sole under the compression post, so that the new post is resting directly on the fiberglass sole.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
My first question would be: why are you planning to unscrew the toerail? What problem are you actually trying to solve?
The sealant which C&C used on their patented hull-deck joint was grey butyl tape. Generally a layer between the in-turned hull flange and the vinyl rub rail, then a layer between the rub-rail and the deck, then a final layer between the deck and the toerail. A diagram of the joint is included in the Owner's manual. I can send you a copy if you wish.
Not that I wish to diss Gerard, but for the past 35 years, butyl tape has been my go-to sealant. Any time I have tried some other new "wonder" adhesive/sealant, it has failed after 2 or 3 seasons and leaked. Anything which I have bedded with butyl rubber has never leaked. Your thru-hulls below the waterline were bedded with butyl rubber by the builder.
I would also be dubious about using a Methacrylate Structural Adhesive for a number of reasons: first, I am not sure how well it would bond aluminum to fiberglass; second, I doubt that it would cope well with the differential expansion of dissimilar materials in hot sunlight. This is the reason that so many late-model C&C's developed cracks around the acrylic windows which were permanently bonded to the fiberglass of the cabin-top (Mine included). When the differential expansion caused the bond to fail and my windows to leak, I took them out, cleaned up the framing recess and resealed them with black butyl tape and bolts. They have not leaked a drop since. Also, if you do manage to permanently bond the toerail with Methacrylate Structural Adhesive, this may greatly complicate any future repairs in the event of a collision or docking damage. Further, the permanent flexibility of the butyl in the joint allows the joint to work and shift, as the hull changes shape to adapt to waves, haulouts, launches, etc. Your hull and deck are not a perfectly rigid structure.
Butyl has kept my boat dry for 40 years. In the event of a dribble along the toerail, I simply tighten up the relevant bolts and the leak stops. So that's my two cents worth on the topic.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hello Allan, what sort of boom cross-section is it? Oval or rectangular? Also is the spare rudder a solid shaft, or hollow?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Mike, try contacting Stainless Steel Outfitters in Barrie, Ontario. Their website is:
https://stainlessoutfitters.com/
They were original suppliers for C&C and came up with a perfect fit replacement ladder for Carriden after the original got munched in a right-of-way disagreement. Prices were fairly reasonable, too.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
In the past, I have found the cockpit locker lids to be a source of rainwater leakage. The water travels around the back edge of the lid and across the underside of the lid, bypassing the teak coaming around the opening of the locker. Somewhere around the middle of the lid, it comes to a stop and drips down into the lockers, eventually ending up in the bilge. I greatly reduced this problem by using caulking to create a small ridge along the back edge of the locker lid. Once the water flows over the back edge of the lid, it flows down this ridge and then would need to flow uphill to make it back onto the underside of the lid. This works well for rainwater, but not when we ship it green over the cockpit coaming.
If the toerail is leaking, this need not be a major issue. At one point Carriden developed a toerail leak after being bumped on the racecourse. Tightening up the toerail bolts slightly recompressed the butyl caulking and eliminated the leak. That is the joy of butyl caulking, which remains pliable forever, and why I continue to swear by it. Nothing that I have bedded in butyl has ever leaked. Every other space-age caulking that I have tried has failed me. I am also progressively replacing all of my toerail bolts with nylock nuts, which do not work loose.
Another potential source of leaks is the chainplates for the shrouds. Have you checked them? Look for streaking on the bulkheads below the plates. A dozen years ago, I pulled my chainplates, removed the balsa core around the openings and replaced it with epoxy. I then replaced the chainplates, adding some stainless steel backing plates, and spent 20 minutes per chainplate packing the opening with butyl caulking. They have been bone dry ever since and there has been no water penetration into the deck either.
You can use baby powder or talcum to reveal the path of leaks. Just put a light, even dusting of powder onto the suspect area. If any water travels across the area, its path will be revealed. Never use flour or cornstarch, or other food-type material, as the leftover powder may drift into hidden areas, feeding mould and even bugs.
Hope that this helps.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
I sure hope so. Or else I keep checking it for no good reason at all.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
I am truly saddened to hear that Clare has crossed the bar. For the past decade I have appreciated and valued his contributions to the forum and our group of die-hard C&C fanatics. Fair winds and following seas!
A parting thought:
"I find the great thing in this world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving: To reach the port of Heaven, we must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it---but we must sail, and not drift, nor lie at anchor." - Oliver Wendell Holmes
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
I recently shifted from rope/wire to all-rope genoa halyards. I took my original sheaves to Klacko Spars, who supplied much of the original C&C hardware and rigging, and currently do custom work. Rather than trying to find replacement sheaves, they simply took my existing ones and re-machined the sheave profile to a smooth curvature for the rope. Since it was the end of the day, and the staff was not elbow-deep in other work, they did the work while I waited. I simply took the sheaves back down to the harbour and put them back in place.
Although the re-machining of the sheaves does slightly reduce the effective diameter of the rope-handling portion of the sheave, the experts at Klacko did not feel that the change in size was sufficient to make a material difference to the movement of the line. I have been using the modified sheaves for racing with a spectra line and have not experienced any issues. If you make arrangements with a local machine shop ahead of time, they can probably do the same work for you while you wait or, at worst, with a 24-hour turnaround. Re-machining an aluminum sheave should be a fairly simple job for any properly equipped machine shop. The process should also be less expensive than sourcing new sheaves with appropriate bronze bushings.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hello René
I am currently in the process of installing a Garmin 721 onto Carriden. How did you handle the mounting? If I mount it onto the pedestal guard above the compass, I will need to relocate the control head for my Raymarine Autohelm and so far I am not happy with possible alternate locations.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Lawrence,
Carriden is equipped with an Edson pedestal and steering. The cable tension adjustment on my unit is not handled at the junction of the cable and the chain. That is a simple, fixed-length link. Instead, cable adjustment is handled at the point where the cable attaches to the quadrant on the rudder post. After going around the quadrant,the swaged ends of the cable are fed into holes in the quadrant casting and anchored there. You can tighten or loosen the cable by adjusting the nuts on these threaded fittings which connect the cable to the quadrant. You can also use these adjustable ends for fine-tuning your helm alignment, such as centering your king spoke on the wheel.
If your unit is an Edson unit, then the same probably applies for your boat.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Doug. I have a system which uses a snapshackle that is lashed to the ladder with whipping twine, neatly seized. The snapshackle closes around the wire gate which crosses the open centre portion of my pushpit. A line runs from the release pin on the snapshackle down to the rung of the ladder which is closest to the waterline. The ladder is held securely when up and cannot drop unintentionally. By pulling on the line, you release the snapshackle and this allows the ladder to drop back into the water. Better for your head if you are not directly underneath it. I have tested this and it works well. Once I have the boarding ladder mounted for the season, I shall take some pictures and get them posted. I am still completing repairs to the ladder and taffrail after being nudged by a Frers 36 last season. It was, briefly, very exciting.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
This one isn't about boat maintenance. Since purchasing Smoke in 2009, Alan has been a frequent, lively and helpful contributor to the forum, signing each missive with 'Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002'.
On Monday April 8th 2013, Anne, his wife of 55 years, finally lost a decade-long battle with ill health. Born in Shanghai, she was an adolescent survivor of the infamous Japanese internment camps in World War II and subsequently traveled the world, both before and after marrying Alan.
I know that many forum members will want to join me in conveying condolences and expressing our sadness that he has lost his companion of so many years.
As Tom Robbins once wrote: “The highest function of love is that it makes the loved one a unique and irreplaceable being.”
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey Dan,
This is standard on C&C rigging. Carriden has it, my 25 had it too. In essence, the copper swage is a marker to ensure the correct dihedral angle for the spreaders, so that they maintain the proper angle between the shroud and the mast. You may have noticed that when the mast is up and the rig is tensioned, the spreaders do not sit at an exact right angle to the mast. Rather, they are tilted slightly upwards, so that they bisect the angle formed by the stay as it inclines in towards the mast head. The copper swages are usually partnered with small washers and they get positioned immediately below the spreaders, when you are rigging the mast prior to putting it up.
In short, yes you should replicate the copper swages, in exactly the position on the shroud where they currently sit. When Bristol Marine replaced my one upper shroud, they made sure to include the swage.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hello Steve,
I pulled the tank out of Carriden, a 1980 Mk III, shortly after purchasing her. Once I took the fastening bracket off of the aft end of the platform on which the tank sits, it slid out of the hole in the bulkhead with no problem. Maneuvering the tank out of the locker was more challenging, as the clearance between the fittings on the top of the tank and the sides of the locker opening was very tight. However, it can be done.
If the tank is still solid and in one piece, why not simply clean it out, rather than replace it?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Don't do it!!!
I decided to take that advice from the Gougeon Brothers' website three seasons ago. I removed my grabrails and brought them home, then stripped all of the external teak and sanded it back to bare wood. I followed the recommended process exactly, cleaning the external surfaces with solvents to remove the natural oils from the surface layer, then coating them with 3 coats of epoxy, using the Special Coatings Hardener. The epoxy was then overcoated with 3 coats of Cetol Natural Teak finish to provide UV and wear protection. For the first season, it looked fabulous. By the second season, the epoxy had started to release from various parts of the teak, leaving milky-looking areas in the finish. This started first at points where there was a seam in the teak joinery, or a plug, and the process accelerated over the course of that summer and the following one. My own conviction is that the natural oils in the teak asserted themselves and caused the epoxy to separate. This spring I had to strip off all of the epoxy coating. In the "milky" areas, I could just peel the finish off with my bare hands and a scraper. Where the epoxy was still bonded, I had to use a heat gun to strip off all of the old epoxy and then sand back to bare wood again. From now on, I am sticking to Cetol Natural Teak, which doesn't have the orange tone of the original Cetol. I touch it up with a fresh coat each spring and it just keeps on going.
I also realized that wherever the epoxied teak took damage, from a knock or a chip, it was going to be harder to repair the finish. All in all, it seems to be simpler to stick with a regular external coating, such as Cetol or varnish and accept the annual recoating process.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
When I bought Carriden in 2005 I found a similar issue with the tang for the lower shrouds on one side of the mast. However, on my mast the rivets are there essentially as a backup, since the tang and spreader cup assemblies are primarily held in place by a 3/8-inch or larger stainless steel bolt which goes right through the mast. The bolt is hidden inside the spreader cups and is not visible when the spreaders are in place. My conjecture is that the rivets are in place to help distribute the downward pull on the tang and thereby prevent the hole for the stainless bolt from elongating under load and wear. The original rivets appeared to be of stainless steel. I drilled out all of the rivets and replaced them with new stainless steel ones. Had to buy a whopping big commercial-grade pop riveter in order to fasten them in place. After eight seasons, there has been no visible fatigue or degradation, albeit in a fresh-water environment.
I have no idea about your rivets on the front of the mast. Where exactly are they located? My mast has no inner extrusions whatsoever. I had to install vinyl tubes and anchor them to the inside of the mast in order to protect my wiring from halyard chafe. I did use pop rivets when anchoring the tubes, but only in a few spots and they are all hidden under other fixtures. Between the anchoring method and the way in which the halyards have been led, it is virtually impossible for the lines to chafe on the rivets.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Alan, I will not dispute the virtues of having an actual sailmaker come down and measure, then follow up with a check sail to make sure that things have worked out as expected. My understanding of Lee Sails is that they work as a value leader by not maintaining an expensive local presence beyond the sales rep and repair facilities, and this is how they offer sails at a much lower cost. As ever, having a first-class experience providing ultimate service simply costs more. Personally, I have always been happy in dealing with Kevin Piper at Bay Sails in Hamilton. However, if budget constraints are more important than ultimate performance, then Lee Sails may be a better fit for someone's bank account. After all, they do market themselves as cruiser-oriented, a market where value and durability outweigh an extra tenth of a knot or pointing two degrees higher.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Actually Alan, Dockside Chandlery is a sales rep for Lee Sails, which I presume is how kdickins got the quotes that he is planning on following up on. It is worth giving James at Dockside a call.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Tom,
Sorry to hear that you are still having cooling problems. Trouble-shooting this can require a few steps in order to narrow down the nature of the problem. Has Aries always been a fresh-water boat? Is there any possibility of salt-water corrosion in the cooling jacket? But first, some basics:
1. Since you do not state otherwise, I presume that you are now getting a reasonable flow of water out of the engine exhaust port on the stern. If so, this indicates that the water pump is indeed working and pressurizing the cooling system. If not, then you are simply not getting cooling water into the system in the first place.
2. You mentioned that the rubber impeller blades had been chewed off and presumably disappeared into the engine. It is possible that one of these pieces is blocking the flow through the cooling jacket, possibly at the 'T' fitting. Once the water exits the water pump, a hose conducts it to the 'T' fitting in the water jacket side plate, on the starboard side of the engine. If this fitting is blocked, then water cannot make it into the engine block proper.
3. In a similar vein, if the thermostat is stuck shut, then the water cannot flow out of the cooling jacket. This means that is also blocked from entering through the 'T' fitting into the engine block. Instead, it flows through the bypass in the thermostat housing directly into the exhaust manifold and from there through the muffler and out the exhaust port in the stern, without providing any cooling.
So, if you are in fact getting reasonable amounts of water out of the exhaust port, I would start with the following steps:
1. First, remove the thermostat from its housing, close things up and try the engine again. If it starts cooling properly, then the thermostat needs to be cleaned or replaced. The thermostat housing sits on top of the block at the front of the engine, with one hose coming into it from the 'T' fitting and one going out and across the front of the engine to the exhaust manifold. The thermostat can be cleaned by soaking it in vinegar for up to 24 hours, then brushing off all of the accumulated crud. You can then put it in a pot of water and heat the water up to verify that the thermostat actually opens when hot. You can use a cooking thermometer to verify at what temperature it actually opens.
2. If step 1 did not solve the problem, then you could try removing the water jacket side plate from the starboard side of the engine and check that the outlet of the ‘T’ fitting is in fact clear and allowing water to flow through. Be gentle and patient in undoing the bolts of the side plate. If necessary, use penetrating oil and heat to help free them up. When replacing the plate, torque the bolts to a snug fit, somewhere around 25 ft-pounds.
If the above two steps do not restore effective cooling, then you may need to power-flush the water jacket. This is a much more complicated procedure which is described quite thoroughly in the Moyer manual for the Atomic 4.
Try these steps and let us know how they work out. Remember that older ladies like our nautical mistresses require patience and gentle persuasion.
P.S. I think that David makes an excellent point about the Moyer water pump cover vs. the regular Speed-Seal cover. I have read the same sort of comments elsewhere.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey Dan,
Carriden has her batteries abaft the aft main bulkhead, in the port cockpit locker. I don't feel that this shifts the weight so far aft that it makes a major trim difference. Properly done, it yields a much more solid mounting platform than the shelves beside the engine, which is one reason that Ivan had me help convert C-Wolf to a similar mounting system. It greatly improves access to the port side of the engine, including all those fiddly bits like the carburetor, fuel pump, polishing filter, etc. I now use the space for the permanently mounted battery charger, storage for spare oil and lubricating fluids and, eventually, a tip-out waste bin. My original stainless muffler is located on a small platform beside the stuffing box. Pop across the creek and have a look sometime.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Hey there Allan,
When I switched over heads in Carriden, I just used some 3M high-strength (fiberglass reinforced) polyester filler to fill the old holes and then touched up the surface with some gelcoat paste. To mount the new head, I went to my local plumbing supply store and got some brass toilet-mounting bolts. These are double-ended bolts, which are lag screws (self-tapping wood screw thread) on one end and a machine screw on the other end. Typically, they also come with brass cap nuts and may even include brass washers. Once you have positioned the new head and marked the location for the bolts, you just drill into the platform. There should be a 1/2-inch or 3/4-inch plywood base moulded into the platform for the head. You simply screw the lag screw end of the bolt into the base, leaving enough of the machine screw end protruding so that you can fasten down the toilet. I used this method for both my 25 and my 27, and the heads have remained secure for decades. After drilling the holes, remember to use a countersink to flare the edge of the gelcoat, as this will reduce the possibility of cracking and flaking the gelcoat around the hole as you screw in the bolts.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
The boat with no visible set screws is an early Mk. III, and I believe it dates back to 1973. This could also be a case of the set screws being covered over, as the shaft strut does not look as though it is even close to being down to the actual bronze.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario